Dealing with accutane hairloss (help) (suicidal)

[jamesbooker1975]

I would agree with this but the problem is that I’ve run into a few people with accutane hair loss. And it’s the same thing, diffuse loss with curlier hair. Dry and different textured hair. And an inflamed scalp sometimes. Plus there’s not much family history of early balding. If it was really accutane stopping male pattern baldness why would it cause hair loss in such a weird way?

I’m not convinced it’s androgenic. It’s autoimmune related and it takes years to reverse. I’m guessing topical steroids or JAK inhibitors will help.

I mean it would be interesting if someone with accutane hair loss jumped on finasteride to see if it helps

Again, Accutane only cause hair loss at high dose and cause it deplese vitamin B12 .

 

[ChemHead]

Again, Accutane only cause hair loss at high dose and cause it deplese vitamin B12 .

Read:

Retinol inhibits aromatase activity and expression in vitro - PubMed

Aromatase converts androgens into estrogens and is thought to supply a local source of estrogen that facilitates the growth of hormone-responsive tumor cells. Inhibition of aromatase is therefore an important chemopreventive strategy. We investigated the effect of retinol and selected retinoids...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Trust me, I've experienced accutane induced hair loss and I've done over a decade of research and experimentation in finding the cause of hair loss. Accutane's effect on hair is directly proportional to its interference with the aromatase pathway. Higher doses of accutane do make its effect worse, but it's not related to vitamin B12. It's the dose-dependent extent to which accutane disrupts the aromatase pathway.

 

[jamesbooker1975]

Read:

Retinol inhibits aromatase activity and expression in vitro - PubMed

Aromatase converts androgens into estrogens and is thought to supply a local source of estrogen that facilitates the growth of hormone-responsive tumor cells. Inhibition of aromatase is therefore an important chemopreventive strategy. We investigated the effect of retinol and selected retinoids...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Trust me, I've experienced accutane induced hair loss and I've done over a decade of research and experimentation in finding the cause of hair loss. Accutane's effect on hair is directly proportional to its interference with the aromatase pathway. Higher doses of accutane do make its effect worse, but it's not related to vitamin B12. It's the dose-dependent extent to which accutane disrupts the aromatase pathway.

I have tries arimidex, aromasin and even letrozol, none cause me hair loss .

 

[jamesbooker1975]

I have tries arimidex, aromasin and even letrozol, none cause me hair loss .

Plus tretinoin is an excelent hair growth . Pubmed it .

 

[ChemHead]

I have tries arimidex, aromasin and even letrozol, none cause me hair loss .

I've used adex and letrozole as well, but just using them doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to lose all your hair. It's not that simple. Nothing in the body is simple. It's possible that in your particular genome, these drugs maybe aren't as effective in certain tissues as others. So, maybe in breast tissue, your genetic expression of aromatase gives a slightly different structure than what is expressed in your skin or hair follicles and these particular drugs interact differently because of this difference in structural conformation.

If you search femara or letrozole and hair loss, I'm certain you'll find loads of forum posts from women who have breast cancer and are experiencing hair loss from taking letrozole.

Plus tretinoin is an excelent hair growth . Pubmed it .

I'm aware of this. Like I said, the body's biochemical mechanisms are never black and white. In lower doses, retinoic acid is likely acting on another pathway that is stimulatory helpful in hair growth. When larger system doses are encountered (like with the use of accutane), those smaller stimulatory effects experienced at lower doses are completely washed out by the larger system effect induced by its interference with the aromatase pathway.

 

[TurboFixer]

Plus tretinoin is an excelent hair growth . Pubmed it

Is that only in conjunction with minoxidil or should I start rubbing my .05 % tret for my acne on my scalp solo

 

[jamesbooker1975]

Is that only in conjunction with minoxidil or should I start rubbing my .05 % tret for my acne on my scalp solo

It work alone too. There are studies that you can find on pubmed .
When I was really young, at 18th, I did a course of Isotretinoin and , since I already had male pattern baldness, used minoxidil. Best combo ever. It was in 1996, didn't know that isotretinoin was a great dht inhibitor , so I stoped . Just 2 years after, discovery on pubmed ( Actually it was already 1999 ) .

 

[jamesbooker1975]

I've used adex and letrozole as well, but just using them doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to lose all your hair. It's not that simple. Nothing in the body is simple. It's possible that in your particular genome, these drugs maybe aren't as effective in certain tissues as others. So, maybe in breast tissue, your genetic expression of aromatase gives a slightly different structure than what is expressed in your skin or hair follicles and these particular drugs interact differently because of this difference in structural conformation.

If you search femara or letrozole and hair loss, I'm certain you'll find loads of forum posts from women who have breast cancer and are experiencing hair loss from taking letrozole.


I'm aware of this. Like I said, the body's biochemical mechanisms are never black and white. In lower doses, retinoic acid is likely acting on another pathway that is stimulatory helpful in hair growth. When larger system doses are encountered (like with the use of accutane), those smaller stimulatory effects experienced at lower doses are completely washed out by the larger system effect induced by its interference with the aromatase pathway.

If Accutane was an aromatase inhibitor, should cause the two main side effects :
1) Muscle and tendom tear
2) If you use it during teen year, it should increase the height . Since the the epiphysis are "welded" by estrogen levels. Actually , There was a time when AI where used instead of with growth hormone to increase heigh on teens, but, cause the amount of side effects, if is preferable to only use GH . And this is , why, in general, males are taller than females, simple cause female get their the epiphysis are welded sooner than males .

 

[ChemHead]

If Accutane was an aromatase inhibitor, should cause the two main side effects :

I cited a publication for you where the authors claim that Accutane inhibits aromatase activity. I don't there's really any question whether retinoic acid inhibits aromatase.

2) If you use it during teen year, it should increase the height . Since the the epiphysis are "welded" by estrogen levels. Actually , There was a time when AI where used instead of with growth hormone to increase heigh on teens, but, cause the amount of side effects, if is preferable to only use GH . And this is , why, in general, males are taller than females, simple cause female get their the epiphysis are welded sooner than males .

Just like the use of adex or letrozole doesn't necessarily mean that everyone that takes it is going to experience hair loss, it also doesn't mean that retinoic acid is going to increase the height of all teenagers that use it. It would also be incredibly difficult to measure this effect because teenagers are... teenagers.. and they're already in the process of growing. So, how do you differentiate between growth effects caused by anything that inhibits aromatase vs. normal teenage growth? And who has cared enough to perform a study on the effects of teenage growth changes induced by the aromatase inhibiting effects of accutane? If the phenomenon exists (and it's certainly possible), it's unlikely you'll find any clinical literature because it's not something that anyone has a reason to study or to even look out for from an anecdotal perspective.

 

[ChemHead]

Consider someone that has a very strong expression of aromatase in skin and hair follicles, or, perhaps, they have a very strong estrogen receptor expression (or both). Someone like this may be relatively unaffected (in terms of hair loss) by an AI at a standard dose. However, consider someone on the opposite end of the spectrum that has a relatively low aromatase expression and/or low estrogen receptor expression in the skin and hair follicles. That same dose that left the other person unaffected may cause severe hair loss in the person with low expressions of aromatase and estrogen receptors.

This is why these matters are more complex than observing that "x" drug doesn't affect all people the in the same manner. Drugs will never affect everyone in the same manner because everyone is genetically different and what I stated above is a perfect example of this.

 

[jamesbooker1975]

Consider someone that has a very strong expression of aromatase in skin and hair follicles, or, perhaps, they have a very strong estrogen receptor expression (or both). Someone like this may be relatively unaffected (in terms of hair loss) by an AI at a standard dose. However, consider someone on the opposite end of the spectrum that has a relatively low aromatase expression and/or low estrogen receptor expression in the skin and hair follicles. That same dose that left the other person unaffected may cause severe hair loss in the person with low expressions of aromatase and estrogen receptors.

This is why these matters are more complex than observing that "x" drug doesn't affect all people the in the same manner. Drugs will never affect everyone in the same manner because everyone is genetically different and what I stated above is a perfect example of this.

There is not a single in vivo study showing that it have anti aromatase effect. We are talking about a drug that have being on the market for more than 30 years . Again, muscle tear, tendon tear, is not even a rare side effect on accutane users. Use Aromasin everyday for 6 month, you will end up with at least on muscle or tendom tear.

 

[ChemHead]

There is not a single in vivo study showing that it have anti aromatase effect. We are talking about a drug that have being on the market for more than 30 years . Again, muscle tear, tendon tear, is not even a rare side effect on accutane users. Use Aromasin everyday for 6 month, you will end up with at least on muscle or tendom tear.

My apologies, but I'm not sure how tendon or muscle tears are relevant to accutane being capable of inhibiting aromatase. I just did a ten second google search and cited the very first publication regarding accutane possessing the ability to inhibit aromatase. There may be many others and some of them may contain in vivo experimentation, but that's not relevant to me. If accutane can inhibit aromatase in vitro, it's capable of doing it in vivo. Whether there is in vivo data to support that, I'm not sure.. I haven't looked.

In my own personal experience with AIs, I have never experienced a muscle or tendon tear. Among the many women that use AIs for breast cancer, I've also never noticed any mention in their forums about muscle or tendon tears. That doesn't mean I'm claiming it doesn't happen, but I think the more likely explanation is that individuals that happen to experience these tears tend to intersect with the bodybuilding community and bodybuilders are far more likely to experience muscle and tendon tears regardless of whether or not they are on an AI.

What I have experienced with both traditional aromatase inhibitors, as well as accutane, is joint pain and hair loss. These are both side effects that women taking AIs for breast cancer also commonly experience. And it makes sense to me.. not all women will experience joint pain or hair loss from an AI for cancer just like not all men taking an AI will necessarily experience hair loss or joint pain. In my particular case, I likely experience these side effects because I have a lower expression of aromatase and likely estrogen receptors relative to other people.

 

[jamesbooker1975]

My apologies, but I'm not sure how tendon or muscle tears are relevant to accutane being capable of inhibiting aromatase. I just did a ten second google search and cited the very first publication regarding accutane possessing the ability to inhibit aromatase. There may be many others and some of them may contain in vivo experimentation, but that's not relevant to me. If accutane can inhibit aromatase in vitro, it's capable of doing it in vivo. Whether there is in vivo data to support that, I'm not sure.. I haven't looked.

In my own personal experience with AIs, I have never experienced a muscle or tendon tear. Among the many women that use AIs for breast cancer, I've also never noticed any mention in their forums about muscle or tendon tears. That doesn't mean I'm claiming it doesn't happen, but I think the more likely explanation is that individuals that happen to experience these tears tend to intersect with the bodybuilding community and bodybuilders are far more likely to experience muscle and tendon tears regardless of whether or not they are on an AI.

What I have experienced with both traditional aromatase inhibitors, as well as accutane, is joint pain and hair loss. These are both side effects that women taking AIs for breast cancer also commonly experience. And it makes sense to me.. not all women will experience joint pain or hair loss from an AI for cancer just like not all men taking an AI will necessarily experience hair loss or joint pain. In my particular case, I likely experience these side effects because I have a lower expression of aromatase and likely estrogen receptors relative to other people.

"My apologies, but I'm not sure how tendon or muscle tears are relevant to accutane being capable of inhibiting aromatase."
Muscle tear and tendon tear are the number one side effects in :
1) Women who use it for breast cancer
2) Body buildings
3) Teenegars that used to increase their Height .

It is unknow if the tendon are caused by low leves of estrogen, or, if the aromatase is part of more reaction in the body ( like, for example, it happen with 5-alpha reductase ) ..
Just some biobliography :

Severe disabling tendinopathy caused by anastrazole

Aromatase Inhibitors—Induced Musculoskeletal Disorders

Anti-Estrogens in Bodybuilding Pt. 2 - Anastrozole - Doctor's Analysis of Side Effects & Properties

there tons of info on bodybuilding forum, strong men forum ( they don't even touch it ) , forums about increasing height ( of teenagers ) , etc .
Pubmed is full of reports on patiente getting muscle tear while on eat. I have a terrible experience too . And you get the tear from nothing , like you lift 50 pounds, and you was lifting 20 pounds , in the middle of the workout , already warm , and you get the tear . I never get a tear in my whole life when I was not using them. And got 3 tears in just 6 month of use them .

Aromasin , if was not cause this, , it is a wonderfull drugs if you have high estrogen, cause it lower, but increase Free testosterone more than 40 % cause it also inhibit SHBG . You feel like on " roids " when you are on it.

 

[ChemHead]

Ok, thanks for that. So, are you saying that people that take accutane don't experience tearing of muscles and tendons? I'm not denying that you may be correct, but I'm not sure how many people out there that have taken accutane would necessarily have to tear a muscle if accutane does have aromatase inhibiting properties. And again, I don't believe that everyone that takes accutane will necessarily experience inhibition of aromatase to the extent that it manifests physically. I think there are plenty of people that take AIs and accutane and never experience any kind of hair loss from it. I think this comes down to differing genetic expressions of receptors and enzymes.

 

[jamesbooker1975]

Ok, thanks for that. So, are you saying that people that take accutane don't experience tearing of muscles and tendons? I'm not denying that you may be correct, but I'm not sure how many people out there that have taken accutane would necessarily have to tear a muscle if accutane does have aromatase inhibiting properties. And again, I don't believe that everyone that takes accutane will necessarily experience inhibition of aromatase to the extent that it manifests physically. I think there are plenty of people that take AIs and accutane and never experience any kind of hair loss from it. I think this comes down to differing genetic expressions of receptors and enzymes.

May be it can inhibit aromatase, we don't know and threre is only an in vitro study . But, what we knot for sure, is that it deplete vitamin B, and that cause Hair loss, so, to prevent it, it is highly recomend to use a vitamin supplement when it is use it .

Altought, if you have male pattern baldness genes and have acne , tons of it during teens years, it is really probably that the male pattern baldness start on that years . Since it is not just DHT plus male pattern baldness genes. There is something else, if not, we all should start balding at our teens cause is the highest levels of androgens you will have in your entire life .
In my case I start with acne and oily face at 14 , by 17 I was already receding . If I started with accutane by 14, I will say the same thing " accutane cause me male pattern baldness " . Guess what , my father started at the same age, Accutane was not even available .

Plus accutane was use it bad , whoever knows why, for many decades . They use it for a really short period of time, really high dose .
Now , an smart derm, use low dose, 10 to 20mg , for a much longer period of time.

Amaziling, Accutane neved fucked my liver enzyme ( First reason according should be use as a " short term treatment " ) , while Dutasteride did it .

 

[JohnSmith21]

Can you post pics of your hair loss ? No one is gonna be able to help or give you any advice if you don’t post pics. Just blur out your face dude it’s nbd

 

[Gunnersup]

Can you post pics of your hair loss ? No one is gonna be able to help or give you any advice if you don’t post pics. Just blur out your face dude it’s nbd

It's completely diffuse and hasn't affected my hairline at all but everywhere else is very sparse. I lose a few hundred hairs a day.

Here is my non receeding hairline-

 

[arnob]

Here's my advice to you.. and I say this from a position of a lot of personal experience and studying of clinical medical and pharmaceutical research:

Firstly, stop going to the doctor. You will only be wasting your time and money and you'll need both of those for what I will recommend for you. Doctors know absolutely nothing about what causes any of this. They've been trained to find a preprogrammed output to an input. They look at symptoms and find the corresponding output of a drug they've been trained is a remedy for those symptoms. The pool of data and information they use to get their prognoses is archaic and not even close to being relevant in terms of modern clinical literature.

Secondly, forget about any of these conditions or diseases that doctors have assigned to you. They mean nothing and they tell you literally nothing about the cause of the condition itself. Naming a condition is useless and not helpful at all for you. The only thing it accomplishes is that it gives you a feeling of hopelessness, making you believe that you now have this complex condition that no one knows anything about. Doctors give ridiculous names to conditions they know absolutely nothing about so that they can have the appearance that they actually know what's going on... "Well, Mr. Gunnersup, it seems you have a rare condition called lichen Planopilaris." Translation: I don't what the f*** is wrong with you, but I'm going to make it seem like I do by repeating your symptoms to you that (you're already aware you have) in the form of a series of complicated words you've never heard.

I'm assuming that before you took accutane, you had acne? If this is the case and you didn't have these "lichen Planopilaris" symptoms before taking accutane, then you don't have a naturally underlying genetic condition behind it... which is good, because it means that you can get rid of it.

Now, before I begin telling you what you need to do (and I probably should have started with this first, but I'm not going to reformat this message), you need to understand that your suicidal feelings are directly related to you feeling of hopelessness. You can fix this, but it's going to require a different kind of spirit than the one you have right now. You see, I have had many reasons to feel suicidal, but it has never gone past being thoughts that I would never act on. And this is because I don't have a spirit that will allow me to give up and, now, I actually have experience fixing these types of problems in my own body with great success. I'm going to download a lot of information on you, but for you own sake, it's important to know that you need to search every possible avenue of information and learn whatever it is that you have to learn to understand the information that you're processing. This gives you power in understanding and consequently gives you hope that you'll find the answers you're looking for if you simply continue searching no matter how you feel. What I'm going to tell you to do is going to require a lot of mental strength, but if you do it and you don't give up for any reason, you will be normal again... beyond better than normal.

Luckily, it sounds like you have not yet begun taking finasteride. Don't. Do not take a 5AR inhibitor under any circumstance. It will only introduce new problems that will be even more difficult to fix than the problem that was created by accutane. I have taken accutane and have also experienced the same symptoms. So, not only am I speaking to you from experience with 5AR inhibitors, but also from experience with the use of trans-retinoic acid (accutane). Based on what I'm seeing about the current medications that you're taking, they have all been prescribed for this skin/hair condition doctors are calling "lichen Planopilaris". Stop taking these. All of them. They will do absolutely nothing for you. They will only contribute to making your condition worse. Doxycycline will destroy the bacterial profile of you gut and wreck your body's ability to digest food properly (among other important functions of bacteria in the body) and the immunosuppressive drugs will do exactly the opposite of what you need (which is to strengthen your immune function, not weaken it).

isi finasteride that bad? i only just started taking it for my diffuse thinning see my thread for pics if you like and im so nervous about it but everyone said its a good thing to do im not like OP mine just top of my scalp so far

 

[ChemHead]

isi finasteride that bad? i only just started taking it for my diffuse thinning see my thread for pics if you like and im so nervous about it but everyone said its a good thing to do im not like OP mine just top of my scalp so far

Finasteride, or any other 5AR inhibitor, is not inherently "bad". These drugs do exactly what they were designed to do.. which is to completely inhibit multiple isoforms or specific isoforms of the 5AR enzyme. The problem is that doing that is not an appropriate solution for hair loss because you need 5AR expression for normal bodily function and these drugs cannot differentiate between 5AR in your hair follicles or your scalp vs your vascular tissues, digestive tissues, connective tissues, or even just a specific area of the body. Using these drugs is like using a nuclear weapon to kill one person in a large city of other benign people. You'll get the target your aiming for, but you'll also cause a lot of other carnage along the way.

We're at the genesis of an age of "smart" drugs and human genetic engineering that will solve most of these problems that tradition drugs can't fix. Traditional drugs lack the ability to have specificity for their targets. They affect whatever is in their path if the shoe fits... and for drugs that alter steroid receptor activation or steroid metabolism, they usually cause changes that negate the positive intended effects of the drug. If there were a drug that targeted 5AR with perfect specificity in the hair follicle, hair loss would no longer be a problem for most people, with the exception of those that still can't produce sufficient levels of intrafollicular estrogens.

When I first took finasteride (at the recommended dose of 1mg) it had a dramatic effect on my hair. It totally stopped falling out within 2-3 weeks and the diameter of my hair shaft became much thicker... like close to double the previous volume (it was thicker than it had ever been for me naturally). However, finasteride also made me feel horrible, but I continued using it anyway because I didn't think I had any other choice. Since finasteride is like that nuclear weapon I described, it didn't affect my endocrine system the positive ways that I wanted it to. It also caused my body to adjust to the unsafe environment caused by systemic 5AR inhibition throughout the body (your body really needs 5AR). The body's reflex to these enzymatic changes is to do whatever it takes to negate the damaging effects of finasteride. Finasteride will cause a sharp increase in systemic synthesis of estrogens and the body's recourse for this is to reduce steroid production and reduce aromatase and estrogen receptor expression... whatever it takes to lower estrogenic activity to lower levels. So, the net result of finasteride (lowered overall steroid synthesis) is worse than where you started to begin with.. before taking finasteride.

However, as I said, I continued to use finasteride because I didn't have the understanding of the pathology of hair loss that I currently have. I gradually became used to how shitty I felt. I became normal. When I changed my dietary and lifestyle habits and accelerated my body's ability to heal itself, I was able to realize just how awful the effects of finasteride can be. I became a completely different person when I recovered. I felt so damn good that, at this point, I would prefer being completely bald and feeling that way than to feel even just average with a full head of hair. Luckily, I don't think I have to compromise. I think I can have both once I've fully recovered from finasteride for the second time, which coming soon.

Finasteride use is simply not worth it. You trade your entire essence and holistic bodily health for marginally better hair (at least for most people that use it). Some can tolerate finasteride better than others because their genetic enzymology is different from others' and they're less systemically affected, but, I believe not only does it eventually catch up with them, finasteride is also less effective in people that don't experience as many side effects... and generally don't realize how it affects them because the change can be very gradual (again, depending on the person).

 

[arnob]

Finasteride, or any other 5AR inhibitor, is not inherently "bad". These drugs do exactly what they were designed to do.. which is to completely inhibit multiple isoforms or specific isoforms of the 5AR enzyme. The problem is that doing that is not an appropriate solution for hair loss because you need 5AR expression for normal bodily function and these drugs cannot differentiate between 5AR in your hair follicles or your scalp vs your vascular tissues, digestive tissues, connective tissues, or even just a specific area of the body. Using these drugs is like using a nuclear weapon to kill one person in a large city of other benign people. You'll get the target your aiming for, but you'll also cause a lot of other carnage along the way.

We're at the genesis of an age of "smart" drugs and human genetic engineering that will solve most of these problems that tradition drugs can't fix. Traditional drugs lack the ability to have specificity for their targets. They affect whatever is in their path if the shoe fits... and for drugs that alter steroid receptor activation or steroid metabolism, they usually cause changes that negate the positive intended effects of the drug. If there were a drug that targeted 5AR with perfect specificity in the hair follicle, hair loss would no longer be a problem for most people, with the exception of those that still can't produce sufficient levels of intrafollicular estrogens.

When I first took finasteride (at the recommended dose of 1mg) it had a dramatic effect on my hair. It totally stopped falling out within 2-3 weeks and the diameter of my hair shaft became much thicker... like close to double the previous volume (it was thicker than it had ever been for me naturally). However, finasteride also made me feel horrible, but I continued using it anyway because I didn't think I had any other choice. Since finasteride is like that nuclear weapon I described, it didn't affect my endocrine system the positive ways that I wanted it to. It also caused my body to adjust to the unsafe environment caused by systemic 5AR inhibition throughout the body (your body really needs 5AR). The body's reflex to these enzymatic changes is to do whatever it takes to negate the damaging effects of finasteride. Finasteride will cause a sharp increase in systemic synthesis of estrogens and the body's recourse for this is to reduce steroid production and reduce aromatase and estrogen receptor expression... whatever it takes to lower estrogenic activity to lower levels. So, the net result of finasteride (lowered overall steroid synthesis) is worse than where you started to begin with.. before taking finasteride.

However, as I said, I continued to use finasteride because I didn't have the understanding of the pathology of hair loss that I currently have. I gradually became used to how shitty I felt. I became normal. When I changed my dietary and lifestyle habits and accelerated my body's ability to heal itself, I was able to realize just how awful the effects of finasteride can be. I became a completely different person when I recovered. I felt so damn good that, at this point, I would prefer being completely bald and feeling that way than to feel even just average with a full head of hair. Luckily, I don't think I have to compromise. I think I can have both once I've fully recovered from finasteride for the second time, which coming soon.

Finasteride use is simply not worth it. You trade your entire essence and holistic bodily health for marginally better hair (at least for most people that use it). Some can tolerate finasteride better than others because their genetic enzymology is different from others' and they're less systemically affected, but, I believe not only does it eventually catch up with them, finasteride is also less effective in people that don't experience as many side effects... and generally don't realize how it affects them because the change can be very gradual (again, depending on the person).

Theirs so much there to take in I really appreciate you taking the time to write all that down, I'm just sccared and its the first thing people mentioed to me to do ( see my thread for pics of my hair) and I did a bit of research and went for it, but I've always been scared of finasteride taken me 5 years before I even took my first pill and your points about feeling shitty I can see being true, I need sort my diet out and everything but I guess finasteride is the quick and easy way for so many of us, hopeflly I'm lucky few who dont get the sides thanks for that man really appreciate it