A simple experiment that showed how shampoos can help

[techprof]

Hello all,
Except Dr. Proctor everyone else (Dr. Lee and others) keep saying that minoxidil in a shampoo will not be effective.
Dr. Proctor thinks that if used in a proper vehicle minoxidil shampoo might work. He has NANO shampoo which he claims to be effective

We do have studies showing nizoral shampoo being effective.

Now coming to the experiment. I recently bought flexall cream (16% menthol) used for body pain. I applied the cream (size of a dime) on my dry scalp. I massaged it. I didn't feel the cooling sensation much at all.

Next day, I applied nizoral with tsal shampoo during my bath. After I massaged my scalp with nizoral, I applied 1/3rd of a dime size on my palm, massaged it on my entire scalp. It felt like smokes were coming out of my scalp. I could feel the menthol very much.

I repeated the same experiment twice. Same results.

These days I use very small amount (1/10 of a dime) I still feel cooling sensation.

This shows that shampooing can be effective. The question is using the proper vehicle and penetrant. Old baldy told me that menthol is a penetration enhancer. Perhaps it is worth adding to rogaine.

If there were a shampoo with menthol and minoxidil in it, it might work.
May be mentho needs to be on the scalp for very few seconds, but minoxidil needs to be there for long. However, a shampoo with minoxidil should help if proper vehicle and penetrants are used.

 

[CCS]

the only reason i see for these shampoo's is if you don't want to leave topicals on your head for hours. If you can figure out a penetration enhanser, why not use a fast topical instead of shampoo? because the water helps, and it is easier to rinse it off while you are in the shower? I agree that if nizoral works, then it is possible that some other drugs can also be delivered. just like if topical spironolactone can get into the follicle, and so can fluridil and RU, then maybe finasteride or dutasteride can to somehow.

that would be nice if we could just was our hair for 5 minutes and not have to apply any topicals the rest of the day, and get our whole scalp so that all the hairs are healthy. Proctor will be rich if he figures that out.

 

[hellohello]

Yes it's penetrating a few layers of skin to soothe your irriration, but will it penetrate through all layers of skin and into the membrane - i think not !!

 

[CCS]

does nizoral help hair growth because it actually blocks androgen receptors, or because it helps inflamation? if the later, that would explain why 1% is as good as 2%. i would think if it actually blocked DHT the 2% would be better. how strong of an anti-androgen is the active ingredient? it would have to be strong to block even a few percent of DHT's androgen binding. even topical finasteride, which lowered serum levels by 30 or 40% in one study, did not have any effect on hair growth, though the placebo had high hair loss, indicating the vehicle could have caused the hair loss and cancelled the good. I guess since the finasteride did better than placebo (if i remember it right) that would show that a 40% reduction should grow some hair. so maybe nizoral does inhibit dht, though i think that is just invitro.

hellohello.
if my scalp does not feel irritated, do i need nizoral?

brian,
how strong an anti-androgen is the nizoral active ingredient (absorption time asside?)? your list of competetors did not have keto- whatever it is.

 

[hellohello]

I would seriously doubt that Nizoral would penetrate through to your hair follicles. It works by removing bacterias and fungus from your scalp. It has no penetration agents, and if it did then you would most likely get some sort of side effect, epsecially using 2% for a few minutes on the scalp.

Nizoral i think is useful for people who get irraited by Minoxidil, or the Propecia Glycol and side effects such as flaking and itching caused by the flakes.

 

[Bryan]

I would seriously doubt that Nizoral would penetrate through to your hair follicles. It works by removing bacterias and fungus from your scalp. It has no penetration agents, and if it did then you would most likely get some sort of side effect, epsecially using 2% for a few minutes on the scalp.

So how do you explain the fact that it seems to reduce sebum production and the size of sebaceous glands?

Bryan

 

[hellohello]

Does it reduce production, or just strip the skin of it temporarily?

 

[Bryan]

Does it reduce production, or just strip the skin of it temporarily?

It reduces sebum production and the size of the sebaceous glands, according to that famous French Nizoral study. Haven't you read it?

Bryan

 

[techprof]

college and hello,
My thoughts are like this. If minoxidil is as effectively delivered during shampooing and is only effective as 10% of letting it sit on the scalp for 4 hours, it is still worthwhile because when we apply topicals, they don't reach the entire scalp. When we shampoo, it reaches the entire scalp.
(This way the entire scalp will get some minoxidil everytime we shampoo).

 

[Bryan]

Not to mention that, as Dr. Proctor likes to point out, the scalp will never be more hydrated than it is during a shampoo.

Bryan

 

[techprof]

Thanks Bryan. I gave a conservative number of 10% compared to topicals. With the hydration, it could be more than 10%. No one knows unless studies are done. But, it is annoyingly surprising for me that commerical shampoo makers won't do this.

 

[Bryan]

I can't say that I'm surprised that nobody would want to sell shampoo with something like minoxidil in it. I think Upjohn would be HORRIFIED at the idea. Aside from the issues of variation from person-to-person (what if one person typically shampoos his hair very quickly, while another one likes to relax in the bathtub for a long time with his head all lathered-up, while listening to music? :wink: ), what happens if, say, some of those minoxidil-laden suds drip down and get into your EYES or NOSE, for god's sake?? Getting it into mucous membranes might greatly enhance its systemic absorption. It seems to me that putting something as potent as minoxidil into a shampoo is like playing with fire. If you do it at all, you better be damned sure you know EXACTLY what you're doing.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

techprofessor,

if 10% is good enough and you just want to get your entire scalp, why don't you pour some minoxidil into an empty shampoo bottle and fill it with mostly wtih 70% isopropyl alcohol and spread 10 mL over your whole scalp while in the show after a quick shampoo. Or better yet, aply it liberally everywhere with your dropper right after you get out of the shower. I don't know if there will be a reaction, but you could mix in a little folligen too, for your NW6 area.

 

[viperfish]

I can't say that I'm surprised that nobody would want to sell shampoo with something like minoxidil in it. I think Upjohn would be HORRIFIED at the idea. Aside from the issues of variation from person-to-person (what if one person typically shampoos his hair very quickly, while another one likes to relax in the bathtub for a long time with his head all lathered-up, while listening to music? :wink: ), what happens if, say, some of those minoxidil-laden suds drip down and get into your EYES or NOSE, for god's sake?? Getting it into mucous membranes might greatly enhance its systemic absorption. It seems to me that putting something as potent as minoxidil into a shampoo is like playing with fire. If you do it at all, you better be damned sure you know EXACTLY what you're doing.

Bryan

But, that is exactly what lipoxidil likes to do. Play with fire!

 

[sublime]

:sleep:

 

[Bryan]

Do they know if this reduction is due to the shampoo's direct effect on the Sebaceous gland or the shampoo's effect on the scalp micro flora?

No, but I bet they'd be hard-pressed to explain how fungi on the surface of the scalp could affect the sebaceous glands underneath.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

is the nicotinic acid N-Oxide in dr P shampoo similar at all to nicotine? can it react in the scalp and turn to nicotine, and cause addiction?