Attn: hairlosstalk mod

[viperfish]

Hey mod,
I am using the same regimen as you, revivogen, spironolactone, nizoral. How have your results been by using these three. Also there seems to be alot of debate on whether revivogen is even worth using. What are your feelings on this? Thanks.

 

[JesusFreak]

No offense to HairLossTalk.com, but I would probably use revivogen occasionally if I was selling it and basically trying to set the perception that it really worked. Fair or not, it's a criticism that goes along with touting the value of a product you sell, especially when that product has no real scientific basis-other than a few obscure abstracts.

I have no idea if the stuff works or not. I tried it a long time ago and didn't perceive that it did anything positive. It did turn my hair rusty orange, made may my hair dry and brittle, made my scalp itch like crazy. I only used it for 3 months, during which I saw no regrowth and the same period of time it took to see excellent regrowth with topical spironolactone. I just would not pay the price for it again. I actually did like the shampoo.

I think a better idea for dht inhibition would be to add a low concentration of finasteride to spironolactone.

 

[HairlossTalk]

No offense to HairLossTalk.com, but I would probably use revivogen occasionally if I was selling it and basically trying to set the perception that it really worked. Fair or not, it's a criticism that goes along with touting the value of a product you sell, especially when that product has no real scientific basis-other than a few obscure abstracts.

Nah, see in order to use that logic, I would have to be basically a dishonest person who is completely full of crap that sells out for money, and I dont and wont and never have and never will work like that. Ever. So this is way way way off base. I don't pretend to use something just to keep focus on it so I can sell it. If i did that I would be no better than all the other frauds I spend so much energy trying to Oust (Procerin, etc) on a daily basis. I don't lie. I am not a dishonest person, and I would never give up my soul for the almighty dollar. I hate people who do, and I despise everything they're about.

As for Revivogen, I have seen random comments on the other sites where people just say "And we all know Revivogen is useless". I don't know what sites you frequent but for some reason people have decided that Revivogen has the least amount of clinical data backing it as an unproven treatment. That is TOTALLY wrong. It is the total opposite. As far as clinical data goes, Revivogen has more than *any* other unproven product on the market right now. Hands down. These same people are using Green Tea capsules, Saw Palmetto, and Biotin. That's what cracks me up.

I use revivogen for one reason. I had great success on Propecia, all by itself. My goal is to maintain a full head of hair that was quickly beginning to thin up front. Propecia did that for me for nearly 3 years. I had a hypersensitive reaction to it, and had to stop taking it. It was my worst nightmare because I was positive that I was basically screwed. So I desperately began searching for the prodcuts with the MOST probable chance of doing what Propecia did. The products that had the MOST data backing them as DHT inhibitors. I spent quite a bit of time trying to decide. Propecia was no longer an option for me.

I spoke to Bryan Shelton - someone who doesn't sell a damn thing - because he knows more clinical data than any of us could ever dream of. I spoke to Dr. Lee who does not sell Revivogen. I spoke to Revivogen. I spoke to several people and asked - "What set of products has the HIGHEST possible chance of reproducing Propecia?". The answer from everyone was the same:

- Topical Spironolactone 5% Lotion
- Revivogen
- Nizoral Shampoo

I don't sell Topical spironolactone, but it is 50% of my regimen. So there goes the original theory you mentioned. I include revivogen because I am basing my hopes that I will keep my hair, on it.

Revivogen has an immense amount of data backing it as an effective local DHT inhibitor. More data than Tricomin or Folligen or Crinagen have. This is why I am using it. There is *no* other reason. Im in this for my hair, not to tell lies and make money.

As for how it has worked? The regimen as a whole has enabled me to totally maintain a hairline up front for now 2 and a half years since stopping Propecia. Now unless my hair has just decided to stop thinning, the stuff is doing its job and doing it well. I would never assess a DHT inhibitor after only 3 months. Even Propecia takes up to 1 year to work.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Bryan]

No offense to HairLossTalk.com, but I would probably use revivogen occasionally if I was selling it and basically trying to set the perception that it really worked. Fair or not, it's a criticism that goes along with touting the value of a product you sell, especially when that product has no real scientific basis-other than a few obscure abstracts.

I had to smile when I saw that about "...a few obscure abstracts."

If you have access to a medical library, I suggest that you go and actually READ those "obscure abstracts", most of which were published in very prestigious medical journals. There is OVERWHELMING in vitro evidence that certain fatty acids inhibit 5a-reductase, and there are even more of those studies around than they have on the Revivogen Web site! I can cite you a few that even THEY don't seem to know about! :wink:

Furthermore, the in vivo tests done on hamsters in the Journal of Investigative Dermatology (a top-notch journal, BTW) were thorough and exhaustive. The authors of that study also did a human test with GLA (gamma-linolenic acid), and found that it was very effective against human sebaceous glands. There is ample reason to think that Revivogen may very well work just like they claim, especially considering the before-and-after photos they have of some good responders on their site. Until proven otherwise, I personally would give them the benefit of the doubt. However, and this is an important point, the product is probably ONLY a 5a-reductase inhibitor. It's not going to work miracles. Users should have realistic expectations.

Bryan

 

[HairlossTalk]

JesusFreak -

I wont fault you for having this viewpoint. Im quite certain you saw others say something to this effect on other websites, and were just parroting what you'd heard.

You should know that the other hair loss websites have a much less stringent focus on requiring clinical data. The predominant theme there is almost always *personal opinion*.

Now you see firsthand why personal opinion, and one well placed "Aw that stuff sucks" can confuse and mislead a huge number of people. The part that actually sucks is when these people not only say the product has nothing backing it (erroneously), but they take it a step further and imply unethical motivations for those who promote it (me). Their entire premise is wrong, and their conclusion is completely wrong.

You won't find a single person here ranting that Revivogen has no data backing it. You will find this on other sites, because people don't focus as heavily on researching studies over there. This is going to change. Our biggest defense against snake oils is educating ourselves to know what to ask for, and what clinical data to expect.

Its funny that the most proven unproven product on the market (Revivogen) has somehow been labeled ineffective and insufficiently backed, yet products like 6BAP, Innovate and several others are the talk of the town. I will never stop laughing about that irony. :lol:

HairLossTalk.com

 

[JesusFreak]

I say obscure because there is no study or abstract quantifying GLA's effectiveness for male pattern baldness. Do any of these abstracts mention the penetrating agent that was used when applying GLA? I bet they were using a more powerful penetrating agent than just niacin and polysorbate 60/80.

Like I said, I can't say for sure if it works or not, but I can't justify spending $120 on a 3 month's supply of a product that I have strong doubts about. That's just ridiculous, especially if it turns out to be snake-oil.

I'll stick with the proven spironolactone that cost $20 for a 6 month supply...I say proven because, unlike revivogent, there is more than one abstract that shows its effectivess for male pattern baldness, not to mention the fact that I have gotten propecia-type results using it as a single agent, and only after 3 months.

 

[JesusFreak]

I wont fault you for having this viewpoint. Im quite certain you saw others say something to this effect on other websites, and were just parroting what you'd heard.

No, I don't go to any other sites, and my purpose wasn't to slander your intent. I didn't accuse you of anything. I'm sure if It crossed my mind, it had crossed other's as well. I was simply encouraging healthy skepticism. I'm sure you can appreciate a fair discussion about the matter.

I say "no scientific basis" because there has been absolutely no legitament scientific studies done with revivogen for male pattern baldness, and they expect me to dish out $120 ever 3 months to be their Guinea Pig? I don't think so.

Now you see firsthand why personal opinion, and one well placed "Aw that stuff sucks" can confuse and mislead a huge number of people. The part that actually sucks is when these people not only say the product has nothing backing it (erroneously), but they take it a step further and imply unethical motivations for those who promote it (me). Their entire premise is wrong, and their conclusion is completely wrong.

No, i don't see firsthand, because your case was not strong enough to convince me to change my mind regarding my skepticism toward revivogen or why you tout such an over-priced unproven product. Nothing personal.

 

[Bryan]

I say obscure because there is no study or abstract quantifying GLA's effectiveness for male pattern baldness.

But that's NOT the definition of "obscure"! The studies showing its ability to inhibit 5a-reductase are not the least little bit "obscure", and you shouldn't refer to them as such!

Do any of these abstracts mention the penetrating agent that was used when applying GLA?

Yes. Ethanol was used as a vehicle in the hamster study.

I bet they were using a more powerful penetrating agent than just niacin and polysorbate 60/80.

Ethanol is also the main penetrating agent in Revivogen.

I'll stick with the proven spironolactone that cost $20 for a 6 month supply...I say proven because, unlike revivogent, there is more than one abstract that shows its effectivess for male pattern baldness...

Actually, there are only a couple of published studies of topical spironolactone for male pattern baldness, and they aren't exactly the greatest ones in the world (one is that Italian study which I have available on my Web site). Like the fatty acids, topical spironolactone for male pattern baldness relies mainly on theoretical considerations and in vitro and animal experiments.

Bryan

 

[douggie]

Do any of these abstracts mention the penetrating agent that was used when applying GLA?

Yes. Ethanol was used as a vehicle in the hamster study.

Bryan

Now if only I were a hampster this would be relevant.

Just bustin balls.

 

[HairlossTalk]

Jesus - the point is in the realm of unproven products, Revivogen is King. Why? Because in the realm of unproven products, where there are no actual tests on male pattern baldness for *ANY* of the products, the criteria for being the best, is the testing done on the ingredients. You can't expect male pattern baldness tests on an unproven product but not expect the same tests on the other unproven products.

So in the world of unproven products, which make up 99% of products out there, Revivogen's ingredients make it the most proven unproven product out there. Except for maybe Topical spironolactone.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[HairlossTalk]

By the way, where's the male pattern baldness trial data you're relying on for that "American Crew Copper Peptide" product you're using (aka Tricomin)? I know of no studies published with haircounts on actual male pattern baldness at this time, on the American Crew concoction. How about the Green Tea or Polysorbate or, etc etc etc? Do you subject everything in your regimen to the same rules you give Revivogen?

Also, revivogen is $30 a month, not $112.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[JWM]

HairLossTalk.com

You use Revivogen twice a day? Doesn't that make your hair look and smell awful during the day?

 

[JesusFreak]

But that's NOT the definition of "obscure"!

Are we now going to argue over what the word "it" means?

Obscure means that a subject is not clear. It is not clear that revivogen is effective for male pattern baldness, which relies on information gained from test tubes and animal models and personal experiences, therefore the science of revivogen concerning male pattern baldness is obscure.

where's the male pattern baldness trial data you're relying on for that "American Crew Copper Peptide"

You know about the studies concerning Tricomin. No one really doubts that Cu Peptides are probably the best anti-inflammatory on the market.

I guess I havent made myself clear. There are three factors at work when deciding about whether to use a product. The first is effectiveness. The more science a product has to back it up the more likely I will use it. The second factor for me is price...the more reasonably priced a product the more likely I will use it. The last is, ease of use.

Lets quickly run down my list of treatments:

Topical spironolactone - Very cheap, Easy to use, Excellent science backing it

Cu Peptides - Very cheap, Easy to use, Excellent science backing it

minoxidil 5% - Very cheap, Easy to use. Excellent science baking it

Nizoral - Very cheap, Easy to use, Excellent science Backing it

Poly 80 - Dirt Cheap, Easy to use, ambiguous science Backing it

Revivogen - Expensive, Not easy for me to use, questionable science Backing it - that is three strikes, youre out!

I might consider buying revivogen if it actually worked, was priced similar to topical sprio, and if it was easier to apply w/out the hair discoloration and itching side effects.

I'm dishing out $30/month I expect at least the equivalent of the effectiveness of propecia. This stuff looks, sounds and has the feeling more of "Helsinki Scam" than it does a ligitament product such as propecia.

Oh, and how bout those ridiculous pics? Even if they were real, which they aren't, it would be completely dishonest to give the impression that those results are common. These guys are low down snakes, and I shake my head that you have fallen into this kind of shady business tactics. You endorse them, so you are in with them.

If you can get one of those guys who posed for those Before/After pictures to email me giving me updated pics then I will completely change my mind and go buy revivogen. But, you know that isnt going to happen. Because you know those pics are fakes.

 

[viperfish]

Great replies! Jesus your saying the pictures are fake? Where's the proof for that? About those Cu peptides; they are used to promote wound healing and control inflammation, but that is not the pathogenesis of hairloss and Cu peptides will not stop or reverse hairloss! However, it may calm down some of the irritation that may be experienced from piling other topicals on your scalp. Anyone who knows about hairloss will agree with that!

 

[JesusFreak]

Jesus your saying the pictures are fake? Where's the proof for that?

The proof is that you cannot find one person on the face of this earth that has responded to revivogen as a single topical agent similar to the guys in the pics, a response that is stated by the makers. Even the best responders to propecia don't have that kind of success. Ive read tons of testimonials regarding revivogen, and not one has had that kind of success as a single topical agent. Most, give a fuzzy explanation saying they believe revivogen "might" be helping a little, along with propecia and minoxidil. Notice the pics just say Before and After, but make no claim that the success was a result of ONLY revivogen?

they are used to promote wound healing and control inflammation, but that is not the pathogenesis of hairloss

Wrong. Inflammation is an integral part of the male pattern baldness mechanism. Inflammation is an immune reaction to dht, which causes damage to the hair follicle: shortening the length of antagen phase and decreasing the diameter of the hair follicle.

This discussion has become pointless. Ive spoken my mind, and now people can make up their own minds. This is my last response on this thread.

 

[rill]

Buy crinagen instead

Its the best product out there and it has Saw palmetto in it

 

[Guest]

Buy crinagen instead

Its the best product out there and it has Saw palmetto in it

First of all rill, click on Saw palmetto. Second, to my knowledge, rivivogen does have saw palmetto in it also. Saw P ain't sh*t.

 

[rill]

By the way, where's the male pattern baldness trial data you're relying on for that "American Crew Copper Peptide" product you're using (aka Tricomin)? I know of no studies published with haircounts on actual male pattern baldness at this time, on the American Crew concoction.
HairLossTalk.com

The phase II trials that is mentioned on this site, wasnt it done on male pattern baldness?

Just wondering by the way



--I use the lazerbomb, the only proven product out there--

 

[HairlossTalk]

On tricomin yes. American Crew has different levels of ingredients, etc.

Jesus the bottom line is this: You are not going to find a single unproven product (and that means any product not called Propecia or Rogaine) that has as much data backing its ingredients. That's the bottom line. Nothing has it. Not green tea, not polysorbate, and nothing else you are using in your own regimen.

Its not my opinion - thats just the facts based on the data. I couldn't care less if it were green tea or revivogen. If green tea had that much data and revivogen didn't, id be saying it about green tea.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[rill]

First of all rill, click on Saw palmetto. Second, to my knowledge, rivivogen does have saw palmetto in it also. Saw P ain't sh*t.

I was just being sarcastic, sorry

By the way both revivo and american crew have saw P in them, but its not the main ingridient.

As far as tricomin vs American crew the american crew bottle says that it contains the procyte patented copper formula (or something like that).
On the other hand the tricospray is differrent from the one that was used in their trial.