Avodart and Minoxidil
- Thread starter kevinme
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I'm not sure if anyone knows
At least 2 and at most 10 per month, if you want your scalp to get the same DHT conentration as 2.5mg orally would give. My guess is 4 is optimal. Most people who tried did 8 or 10 and got great results. Lower doses cost less and have less systemic effect. I advise applying it at least twice per day, since I don't know how long it stays in the scalp before getting rinsed away by the blood.
You will NOT overdose on 10, or even 30, unless your scalp aborbs 100% compared to your intestine's 60%, which would mean you get the systemic effect of taking 0.56 to 1.66 pills per day oral, which is 0.28mg to 0.83mg per day. I suspect only 1/3 will get absorbed, and at 4 pills a month, your body gets ((4/(3*30))/0.6)*.5mg = 0.037mg/day, which is less than the amount that is equivalent to Propecia (0.1mg). And the much of amount the body gets will already be used because it took AR5 from the scalp with it. However, your scalp will get 200 times this much based on volue, if the dutasteride stays there long enough, which means 7.4mg per day. If the scalp gets saturated with dutasteride, no more will be absorbed until some leaves. I suspect the blood will take a lot away, but I don't know how much or fast, and therefore can't give an ideal dose.
Math:
Any transplant site will tell you the male pattern baldness are is 200cm2. Lets include the surounding horse shoe and say 400cm2. Laser hair removal sights say that most follicles are 2-5mm deep, but that scalp hair is 7mm deep. So assume the scalp is 1cm deep. That is 400cm3. Assume the human body is 80kg and has the density of water, 1g/cm3 which is 1kg/1000cm3.
400cm3/80,000cm3 = 1/200. Concentration = amount of dutasteride/volume. The intestine absorbs 60% of dutasteride in capsules. I read that testosterone patches, which have 12g of testosterone in a past, only get 4g through the skin, and dutasteride is bigger than testosterone, but absorption ratios are much higher at low concentrations and especially in liquids instead of pastes.
Pictures below:
http://www.dutasteride.com/dutasteride-chemistry.html
http://www.trans-health.com/displayarticle.php?aid=78
http://www.bdg.co.nz/reference-standard ... 925.0.html
I use 1/3 absorption as a ball park figure. It could be 95% or 30%, but an underestimate makes sure you get enough. Your goal is to load what 2.5mg orally would do to the scalp. I assume that DHT concentrations in serum and scalp are the same, but I could be way off on that. The prostate probably takes most of it was it since it is big and near the gut and has type II AR, which dutasteride likes. The scalp is probably mostly type I. Good news is most topicals come down the follicle like a highway, while also slowly entering directly through the skin. This is the only reason to keep your pores unplugged, so the smallest follicles that need it most can get some. Anyway, take the 1/3 and plug use it and you get the math expressions I have above. 7.4mg per day is very high, but since the blood probably rinses dutasteride away as it comes in, concentrations probably don't get that high. I'd use a small dose more often if you don't mind applying it, like 2-3 capsules per bottle and 1.5 bottles per month, three times per day. You probably need more than 1mL to cover your 200cm2 (and let the rest diffuse to your horse shoe. So maybe 1-2 capsules per bottle of Minoxidil 5% diluted with 70% issoproply, 2 mL per application, 3 times per day.
The people who applied 1mL twice per day with 8-10 capsules in 1 bottle had great results. But remember that what goes in, unless sweated out, must go to the body, and can give you the full does with side effects, just with your hair fortunately getting first shot instead of the prostate skimming it all off the top.
At least 2 and at most 10 per month, if you want your scalp to get the same DHT conentration as 2.5mg orally would give. My guess is 4 is optimal. Most people who tried did 8 or 10 and got great results. Lower doses cost less and have less systemic effect. I advise applying it at least twice per day, since I don't know how long it stays in the scalp before getting rinsed away by the blood.
You will NOT overdose on 10, or even 30, unless your scalp aborbs 100% compared to your intestine's 60%, which would mean you get the systemic effect of taking 0.56 to 1.66 pills per day oral, which is 0.28mg to 0.83mg per day. I suspect only 1/3 will get absorbed, and at 4 pills a month, your body gets ((4/(3*30))/0.6)*.5mg = 0.037mg/day, which is less than the amount that is equivalent to Propecia (0.1mg). And the much of amount the body gets will already be used because it took AR5 from the scalp with it. However, your scalp will get 200 times this much based on volue, if the dutasteride stays there long enough, which means 7.4mg per day. If the scalp gets saturated with dutasteride, no more will be absorbed until some leaves. I suspect the blood will take a lot away, but I don't know how much or fast, and therefore can't give an ideal dose.
Math:
Any transplant site will tell you the male pattern baldness are is 200cm2. Lets include the surounding horse shoe and say 400cm2. Laser hair removal sights say that most follicles are 2-5mm deep, but that scalp hair is 7mm deep. So assume the scalp is 1cm deep. That is 400cm3. Assume the human body is 80kg and has the density of water, 1g/cm3 which is 1kg/1000cm3.
400cm3/80,000cm3 = 1/200. Concentration = amount of dutasteride/volume. The intestine absorbs 60% of dutasteride in capsules. I read that testosterone patches, which have 12g of testosterone in a past, only get 4g through the skin, and dutasteride is bigger than testosterone, but absorption ratios are much higher at low concentrations and especially in liquids instead of pastes.
Pictures below:
http://www.dutasteride.com/dutasteride-chemistry.html
http://www.trans-health.com/displayarticle.php?aid=78
http://www.bdg.co.nz/reference-standard ... 925.0.html
I use 1/3 absorption as a ball park figure. It could be 95% or 30%, but an underestimate makes sure you get enough. Your goal is to load what 2.5mg orally would do to the scalp. I assume that DHT concentrations in serum and scalp are the same, but I could be way off on that. The prostate probably takes most of it was it since it is big and near the gut and has type II AR, which dutasteride likes. The scalp is probably mostly type I. Good news is most topicals come down the follicle like a highway, while also slowly entering directly through the skin. This is the only reason to keep your pores unplugged, so the smallest follicles that need it most can get some. Anyway, take the 1/3 and plug use it and you get the math expressions I have above. 7.4mg per day is very high, but since the blood probably rinses dutasteride away as it comes in, concentrations probably don't get that high. I'd use a small dose more often if you don't mind applying it, like 2-3 capsules per bottle and 1.5 bottles per month, three times per day. You probably need more than 1mL to cover your 200cm2 (and let the rest diffuse to your horse shoe. So maybe 1-2 capsules per bottle of Minoxidil 5% diluted with 70% issoproply, 2 mL per application, 3 times per day.
The people who applied 1mL twice per day with 8-10 capsules in 1 bottle had great results. But remember that what goes in, unless sweated out, must go to the body, and can give you the full does with side effects, just with your hair fortunately getting first shot instead of the prostate skimming it all off the top.
yes, it is speculation. But you can stay on finasteride while you do it, or get the same effect of finasteride by taking a dutasteride every 5 days.
Is there really that much lost by putting 2-3 pills on your head each month? I'm plopping down my $6/month and seeing what it does. I'll keep taking an oral back up until I see results that indicate a change.
Is there really that much lost by putting 2-3 pills on your head each month? I'm plopping down my $6/month and seeing what it does. I'll keep taking an oral back up until I see results that indicate a change.
Mer
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Hi,
Thanks for all this information. It really gives the experimenters something to start with.
I'm using Minoxidil twice a day. Would I still use 4 capsules per bottle as stated above? I'm asking because the original poster stated he was applying only once per day.
Thank You,
Eric
Thanks for all this information. It really gives the experimenters something to start with.
I'm using Minoxidil twice a day. Would I still use 4 capsules per bottle as stated above? I'm asking because the original poster stated he was applying only once per day.
Thank You,
Eric
I use mine twice per day. My calculations were based on using 2mL per day. How many mL do you apply per session? The ideal dose is guesswork, as Bryan implied. But you will not overdose with any of my suggestions. And unless Dutasteride is absorbed in solution no where nearly as fast as testosterone is absorbed in a paste, you scalp should get a lot more dutasteride than it would get with 0.5mg orally.
The problem with my speculation is that the other posters have indicated that docs can only test for serum DHT levels, not dutasteride levels or scalp levels. So you will no know what you are getting until you look at your hair months from now. If it stays in the scalp long enough, and enters the lower body already attached to an 5AR, then your body DHT will not drop as much as it did orally. While this prevents side effects, it will also leave you wondering if the topical is working. That is why I suggest taking one DHT capsule per week orally as a back up since that much has the same effect is Finasteride. If you get oral side effects from either drug, then just do the topical. Once you get fantastice results that can't be explained by the back up capsule, you can stop taking the oral dose and just use the topical dose.
The problem with my speculation is that the other posters have indicated that docs can only test for serum DHT levels, not dutasteride levels or scalp levels. So you will no know what you are getting until you look at your hair months from now. If it stays in the scalp long enough, and enters the lower body already attached to an 5AR, then your body DHT will not drop as much as it did orally. While this prevents side effects, it will also leave you wondering if the topical is working. That is why I suggest taking one DHT capsule per week orally as a back up since that much has the same effect is Finasteride. If you get oral side effects from either drug, then just do the topical. Once you get fantastice results that can't be explained by the back up capsule, you can stop taking the oral dose and just use the topical dose.
If the dutasteride is rinsed away by blood fast, and reacts this the 5AR slower than it is rinsed away, you may want 2-3 times daily application. If it stays saturated or knocks out all 5AR in the scalp, once weekly application might be enough. My guess is as good as yours, but I'm doing twice daily because it is still very cheap and my follicles need the minoxidil anyway. If yours can't handle minoxidil, you can do it less often or dilute it with 70% isopropyl rubbing alcohol. Do not avoid any tested med just because of side effects until you've tried the lowest dose imaginable.
Some people here want to stay one treatment for a year just to see how that one treatment works before they add anything to it. I want to use the best probably combo now (including side effects and price) and remove stuff after a year or when I hit side effects. While I'm sure the people in the first group may cure their baldness some day, I just don't have time to stay bald too long.
If anyone here has access to UV spectrascopy (could get it if I really tried. I'd need a good excuss or a friend taking or TAingChemistry 326) you could apply dutasteride to your scalp with Rogaine. Wait an hour, and then rince your scalp good by efficiently with Isopropyl alcohol and water into a jar. Use standards of dutasteride disolved in isopropyl alcohol and water, and get the graph of the spectrum of each. Since dutasteride is aromatic, it should show up on UV, and none of the other compounds should. However, you should test your scalp sweat too before dutasteride application in case it has some aromatic compounds in it. By measuring the volume of run off and the concentration of the standards and comparing absorption values using Beer's law, you can calculate how much Dute is in solution, if your UV spectrum can subract the pure rince spectrum from the spectrum of each standard and each sample. You can easily calculate how much dutasteride is missing and know that much is in your scalp. If I can just use that machine for 10 minutes. I'd arrive with my solutions prepared.
What are the odds the professor or TA would let me show up and do that, if I went to my same TA I took the class with, and was honest about my intentions?
If anyone here has access to UV spectrascopy (could get it if I really tried. I'd need a good excuss or a friend taking or TAingChemistry 326) you could apply dutasteride to your scalp with Rogaine. Wait an hour, and then rince your scalp good by efficiently with Isopropyl alcohol and water into a jar. Use standards of dutasteride disolved in isopropyl alcohol and water, and get the graph of the spectrum of each. Since dutasteride is aromatic, it should show up on UV, and none of the other compounds should. However, you should test your scalp sweat too before dutasteride application in case it has some aromatic compounds in it. By measuring the volume of run off and the concentration of the standards and comparing absorption values using Beer's law, you can calculate how much Dute is in solution, if your UV spectrum can subract the pure rince spectrum from the spectrum of each standard and each sample. You can easily calculate how much dutasteride is missing and know that much is in your scalp. If I can just use that machine for 10 minutes. I'd arrive with my solutions prepared.
What are the odds the professor or TA would let me show up and do that, if I went to my same TA I took the class with, and was honest about my intentions?
Bryan, and everyone else who has links to relevant studies, could you message them to me directly, as many as you got? I want to put them all in one blog on myspace, tittle "links to studies about hair loss, DHT, etc".
That myspace link is not my actually myspace profile. It is just one I'm using for this sight.
That myspace link is not my actually myspace profile. It is just one I'm using for this sight.