Can You Take Aggressive Anti-androgen For Regrowth And Then Switch To Cb For Maintenance?

[Screeech]

Or will your receptors upregulate and make you insensitive to weaker AAs?

I am interested in trying Daro for a year or so for some regrowth and then switching to CB (which currently works for me) for maintenance as the infertility sides and other stuff of Daro are deterring for long-term use.

 

[Ollie]

The whole concept or regulation is a weak one. A user by the name idealforehead showed evidence of AR regulation on castrated rats to be very very minimal - which after a week actually went back to normal. However i guess there are exceptions. As for your question - no one knows. Its unlikely CB is strong enough considering how awful the trial results were.

 

[Screeech]

The whole concept or regulation is a weak one. A user by the name idealforehead showed evidence of AR regulation on castrated rats to be very very minimal - which after a week actually went back to normal. However i guess there are exceptions. As for your question - no one knows. Its unlikely CB is strong enough considering how awful the trial results were.

Yeah, I was reading the thread a few days ago, I think what he presented was absolutely flawed; although, of course I appreciate all the other stuff he offered.

Any study that only covers 7 days is 100% moot in my opinion.

Tolerance is developed over a prolonged period of time.

Just ask people using finasteride who start losing hair 7 years later.

And CB is working fantastically for me at present for maintenance, so that is why getting some regrowth from daro and then maintaining it with the side-effect-free CB is very appealing.

 

[Ollie]

Yeah, I was reading the thread a few days ago, I think what he presented was absolutely flawed; although, of course I appreciate all the other stuff he offered.

Any study that only covers 7 days is 100% moot in my opinion.

Tolerance is developed over a prolonged period of time.

Just ask people using finasteride who start losing hair 7 years later.

And CB is working fantastically for me at present for maintenance, so that is why getting some regrowth from daro and then maintaining it with the side-effect-free CB is very appealing.

Finasterides effectiveness falls over long periods of time 5, 10+ years because we know we become more sensitive to androgens with age. But internal environmentally induced up-regulation isn’t a thing for the vast majority.

I’ve spoken to a couple of pharmacists about this, both of which say they’ve never seen any evidence suggesting drug induced up-regulation exists. As for CB you may find the results very short lived. It’s weaker than RU yet provides better short term results likely because of its corticosteroid properties.

I know a couple of users have tried using corticosteroids for hairloss and had decent results but they tapered off under a year which may explain why in the CB trials the patients were back to baseline at 12 months .

 

[Screeech]

Finasterides effectiveness falls over long periods of time 5, 10+ years because we know we become more sensitive to androgens with age. But internal environmentally induced up-regulation isn’t a thing for the vast majority.

I’ve spoken to a couple of pharmacists about this, both of which say they’ve never seen any evidence suggesting drug induced up-regulation exists. As for CB you may find the results very short lived. It’s weaker than RU yet provides better short term results likely because of its corticosteroid properties.

I know a couple of users have tried using corticosteroids for hairloss and had decent results but they tapered off under a year which may explain why in the CB trials the patients were back to baseline at 12 months .

Strongly disagree, recreational drugs being an example of something that requires more and more as a result of frequent use.

There are a subset of people who use finasteride for 6 months to a year who it works wonderfully for them, then they start losing hair again.

Quineapig, a poster on here is perfect example. He is early 20s and he has used AAs, and everything else and had success only for it to lose effect a short time later.

That is not a result of aging when it happens within a year or so.

And I know for sure there are medicinal drugs (anti-depressants?) that lose effect over time but I can't be bothered looking around for what they are.

In fact, I would say what you referenced about CB is most likely an example of upregulation as it's so weak to begin with even a slight alteration (which occurs over a one year period or so) is enough to deem it ineffective; which would inadvertently answer my question - unfortunately.

 

[Ollie]

Strongly disagree, recreational drugs being an example of something that requires more and more as a result of frequent use

Recreational drugs are completely different as they alter the expression and regulation of neurotransmitters . Neurotransmitters as receptors can regulate insane amounts - which is why drug withdrawal can obviously be so bad . Receptors in the muscle tissue, skin etc cannot regulate like this. They’ve done studies on bodybuilders who inject large quantities of androgens to observe this.

As for peoples regimes losing efficacy I stand by it being a natural occurring change in the body. Just like there are mysterious cases why people get to say 22 and in just a couple of years go to nw7 - I even have a friend when I was at university who had this happen. As there are also guys who get to 40 then very rapidly lose all their hair.

The vast majority of people’s bodies work under the same premise and so generally speaking people’s receptors up-regulating would be the same amongst most individuals . As there are examples of people who finasteride works for over 10 years and for some a claimed short period of time (<1 year) indicates that this couldn’t be the case. Not to say hyperandrogenicity doesn’t occur - it just doesn’t happen in 99% of people.

 

[Screeech]

Recreational drugs are completely different as they alter the expression and regulation of neurotransmitters . Neurotransmitters as receptors can regulate insane amounts - which is why drug withdrawal can obviously be so bad . Receptors in the muscle tissue, skin etc cannot regulate like this. They’ve done studies on bodybuilders who inject large quantities of androgens to observe this.

As for peoples regimes losing efficacy I stand by it being a natural occurring change in the body. Just like there are mysterious cases why people get to say 22 and in just a couple of years go to nw7 - I even have a friend when I was at university who had this happen. As there are also guys who get to 40 then very rapidly lose all their hair.

The vast majority of people’s bodies work under the same premise and so generally speaking people’s receptors up-regulating would be the same amongst most individuals . As there are examples of people who finasteride works for over 10 years and for some a claimed short period of time (<1 year) indicates that this couldn’t be the case. Not to say hyperandrogenicity doesn’t occur - it just doesn’t happen in 99% of people.

Ok, I'll give you a like, but I'm not convinced.

 

[INT]

As for CB you may find the results very short lived. It’s weaker than RU yet provides better short term results likely because of its corticosteroid properties.

I know a couple of users have tried using corticosteroids for hairloss and had decent results but they tapered off under a year which may explain why in the CB trials the patients were back to baseline at 12 months .

Wait... CB has corticosteroid properties?

 

[Michael1986]

I recommend you guys take a look at this thread, titled "Why you likely don't have to worry about androgen receptor upregulation": https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...-about-androgen-receptor-upregulation.110125/.

 

[Screeech]

I recommend you guys take a look at this thread, titled "Why you likely don't have to worry about androgen receptor upregulation": https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...-about-androgen-receptor-upregulation.110125/.

Yeah, I bumped the thread a couple of days ago.

As I said, I don't think a 7 day study is sufficient to reflect the changes that could occur over a whole year or more.

 

[Screeech]

@hemingway_the_mercenary

Can you speak on this subject matter?

You seem knowledgeable.

 

[hemingway_the_mercenary]

You definitely can but Daro is pointless. If anything it’s more likely to make your receptors mutate to a more resistant type.

I would use oh-f since it’s seems more effective in practice. It’s about 3-4x more powerful than ru imo

The main problem with topicals however is absorption so even oh-f probably won’t absorb enough to regrowth on its own until we find a better vehicle

You can take an oral AA and then maintain the regrowth with something like finasteride if your hairloss isn’t too aggressive tho. If penetration wasn’t a barrier oh-f would be the best option

 

[hemingway_the_mercenary]

Send me a if you are interested in trying stronger topical treatments than ru of cb

 

[el_duterino]

There are a lot of anti androgen that are stronger than CB or RU but those are useless for male pattern baldness as they have strong side effects, worse than finasteride or dutasteride for sure.

Flutamide is one of those, the active component of the drug has a serum half life of 8 to 9 hours and is also toxic to the liver as a bonus. How can someone promote this as a hair loss drug ?

Flutamide has been prescribed to older men since 1975 and no one regrew lost hair on it either.

Anti androgen are not for regrowing lost hair, only maintenance and the only one with no side effects is CB aka Clascoterone. The drug is immediately converted into a non-androgenic, safe substance upon entering the blood stream, unlike the other drugs which were targeted at prostate cancer treatment where you need to have a long serum half life.

 

[Ollie]

There are a lot of anti androgen that are stronger than CB or RU but those are useless for male pattern baldness as they have strong side effects, worse than finasteride or dutasteride for sure.

Flutamide is one of those, the drug has a serum half life of 5 to 7 hours and is also toxic to the liver as a bonus. How can someone promote this as a hair loss drug ?

Flutamide has been prescribed to older men since 1975 and no one regrew lost hair on it either.

Anti androgen are not for regrowing lost hair, only maintenance and the only one with no side effects is CB aka Clascoterone. The drug is immediately converted into a non-androgenic, safe substance upon entering the blood stream, unlike the other drugs which were targeted at prostate cancer treatment where you need to have a long serum half life.

He isn't promoting Flutamide. He's promoting Hydroxy-flutamide. Its the metabolite - meaning it doesn't have to be processed through the liver.

on a separate note - AA's should allow for regrowth. Look at oral Bica for example. If you inhibit the AR effectively enough and prevent further damage then the body should take care of the rejuvenation of miniaturised follicles.

 

[el_duterino]

both hydroxy flutamide and flutamide are toxic , read the studies.

In summary, we suggest that inhibition of bile acid efflux by flutamide and its 2-hydroxy metabolite may play a role in flutamide-induced liver injury. Both flutamide and 2-hydroxyflutamide are responsible for cytotoxicity if not metabolized.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17900172

 

[el_duterino]

He isn't promoting Flutamide. He's promoting Hydroxy-flutamide. Its the metabolite - meaning it doesn't have to be processed through the liver.

on a separate note - AA's should allow for regrowth. Look at oral Bica for example. If you inhibit the AR effectively enough and prevent further damage then the body should take care of the rejuvenation of miniaturised follicles.

only May work if the loss is very recent and the follicles still in good shape, wont work if you have lost hair for some time.

We do not have documented regrowth studies on Bica either, and the drug has been prescribed to older men for decades, well before propecia even came out

 

[Screeech]

Send me a if you are interested in trying stronger topical treatments than ru of cb

Thanks for your response.

I've decided to just add seti, pge2 and a WNT agonist and use that for the next 6 months before considering adding a stronger AA as it will help to get a better idea of what is effective but I will be keeping an eye on your oh-flutamide thread.

Thanks!

 

[Derelict]

there was a guy who was using dutasteride, spironolactone and oral minoxidil, he stopped the spironolactone and maintained with ru.

 

[Screeech]

there was a guy who was using dutasteride, spironolactone and oral minoxidil, he stopped the spironolactone and maintained with ru.

Is spironolactone stronger than RU though?