Considering coming off propecia already

[alxne]

Been on it for about 2 months now combined with nizoral. I've noticed my hair a bit thicker, but i've had a few side effects mainly in the downstairs area. (still happening while I've been cutting the tablet in half for the past two weeks)

I haven't yet tried minidoxal and I was wondering if that would work with nizeral without propecia?

 

[Ende]

Most people need an anti-androgen. I recommend that you do some research on RU58841. It can be mixed with Rogaine 5%.

 

[alxne]

Would Minidoxil and nizeral not work then? Do I need propecia as I'm not sure I can carry on, I like my noticeable thicker hair but i've had 3 different side effects all in the same place within a few months!

 

[Orion]

Can't speak from experience, but Minoxidil will work; it is a growth stimulant only however, and it will not keep your hair growing forever... as it doesn't get to the root of the cause of male pattern baldness (DHT) so to fully combat male pattern baldness, it's a good idea to stick with finasteride. However, if you can't handle the side effects (and you've given them time to go away), then by all means get off it.

What kind of sides are you experiencing? Impotence? Erectile difficulties? Watery semen? What?

 

[Orion]

I also have to say - it's disappointing that this topic has had 120 views, and only a couple of replies. You'd think people who are dealing with the same issues as yourself (male pattern baldness) would have enough empathy to give you a hand.. I've had the same issue with my topics.

Sad.

 

[alxne]

What kind of sides are you experiencing? Impotence? Erectile difficulties? Watery semen? What?

All of that and slight pain now and then in testicles.

 

[Mens Rea]

What kind of sides are you experiencing? Impotence? Erectile difficulties? Watery semen? What?

All of that and slight pain now and then in testicles.

and you're just "considering" going off it? Do you realise how unnatural all these things are?

Finasteride really is toxic to some of our bodies, mine included. If you understood exactly what was going on in your body right now i doubt you'd even consider taking another finasteride tablet. Get off it and hope you are one of the lucky ones that actually return to normal (i got worse!!) within the few weeks.

 

[alxne]

What kind of sides are you experiencing? Impotence? Erectile difficulties? Watery semen? What?

All of that and slight pain now and then in testicles.

and you're just "considering" going off it? Do you realise how unnatural all these things are?

Yes because I get the feeling using this is my only chance

 

[Wuffer]

Get off it and hope you are one of the lucky ones that actually return to normal

Dude, saying things like this really doesn't help the situation. You have no proof that only a few lucky individuals avoid permanent sides from finasteride. To the contrary, there is a mass of studies that prove everyone who quits loses the sides after a few weeks. Saying things like this just makes an already anxious guy feel a hundred times worse. Spreading fear like this doesn't help anyone! I know you feel you have been wronged by the meds, but statements like that just needlessly scare people like alxne.

Now Alxne, please consider that these side effects are in your mind. I went through the exact same thing as you did a few weeks ago; a laundry list of sexual and non-sexual sides that were 100% real to me at the time.. I was having major problems getting it up, and had absolutely no libido.. It was extremely embarrassing, and the added pressure of pleasing the gf made it even worse. I worked myself up into a constant panic from reading all these forums. Not to mention I was having 'brain fog' like crazy. I almost quit finasteride, but in desparation, decided to avoid these forums for a week.. Went on vacation with the girlfriend, kept myself busy, exercised, and I am now 100% back to normal. It was all in my head, and I feel great again. I've been on finasteride for 3 months, and am noticing huge positive changes in my hair. Simply convincing myself that these sides were all in my head has eliminated them completely.

I'm not coming out saying that it's not possible to have persistent sides from finasteride, it's just in the range of being so unlikely that there is no reason for a healthy individual to worry about it. Also be sure to weigh out the benefits of keeping your hair; I have seen people get thrown into horrible depressions over losing their hair. You don't want to look back 5 years from now, wishing you had just stayed on finasteride and saved your hair.. It also looks like any new hair loss treatments in the near future (5 years) will basically do what finasteride does, but better..Which means it's unlikely that you will be able to regrow a full head of hair. Time is your enemy; finasteride is the only effective treatment you have right now.

 

[Mens Rea]

Dude, saying things like this really doesn't help the situation. You have no proof that only a few lucky individuals avoid permanent sides from finasteride. To the contrary, there is a mass of studies that prove everyone who quits loses the sides after a few weeks. Saying things like this just makes an already anxious guy feel a hundred times worse. Spreading fear like this doesn't help anyone! I know you feel you have been wronged by the meds, but statements like that just needlessly scare people like alxne

There isn't a "mass" of studies there is a MERCK study that does. MERCK. I take it you haven't read the proscar study, either.

Also - i agree, the majority SHOULD return to normal quickly but its becoming apparent that many don't. There's a new member story on propeciahelp ever day or so nowadays.

I stand by i statement in that you are LUCKY if you avoid these problems. That doesn't imply any percentage, just a subjective opinion. I was unlucky, others are lucky.

I consider people with good hairlines "lucky" even though most people do....its not about statistics.

Now Alxne, please consider that these side effects are in your mind. I went through the exact same thing as you did a few weeks ago; a laundry list of sexual and non-sexual sides that were 100% real to me at the time.. I was having major problems getting it up, and had absolutely no libido.. It was extremely embarrassing, and the added pressure of pleasing the gf made it even worse. I worked myself up into a constant panic from reading all these forums. Not to mention I was having 'brain fog' like crazy. I almost quit finasteride, but in desparation, decided to avoid these forums for a week.. Went on vacation with the girlfriend, kept myself busy, exercised, and I am now 100% back to normal. It was all in my head, and I feel great again. I've been on finasteride for 3 months, and am noticing huge positive changes in my hair. Simply convincing myself that these sides were all in my head has eliminated them completely.

Well, i hope you continue without any sides but i personally worry for you.

My sides didn't develop for over a years usage, some people's take 7 or 8 years. The fact that your body reacted so quickly might show an intolerance to the drug. Maybe things have normalised now btu don't be in denial if they come back, either. DHT is a hugely important hormone in the male body.

[qupte]

Time is your enemy; finasteride is the only effective treatment you have right now.[/quote]

Time's the enemy to all. finasteride is only somewhat effective for slowing down male pattern baldness for most, anyway.

 

[Orion]

Don't be a fearmongerer.

I believe the psychological aspect has a lot to do with the side effects, and that's reinforced in studies (placebo vs. the actual drug). The people experience long term sides are in the minority. Only a couple percent of people experience sides, and of those couple of percent, I would imagine it's like 1/1000 who experience longer-term sides.

You aren't helping the guy at all.. in fact, you could just be making him more paranoid, and causing his side effects to worsen.

 

[Mens Rea]

Don't be a fearmongerer.

I believe the psychological aspect has a lot to do with the side effects, and that's reinforced in studies (placebo vs. the actual drug). The people experience long term sides are in the minority. Only a couple percent of people experience sides, and of those couple of percent, I would imagine it's like 1/1000 who experience longer-term sides.

You aren't helping the guy at all.. in fact, you could just be making him more paranoid, and causing his side effects to worsen.

Placebo groups seem to appear with every drug, its weird. But actual sufferers have substantive problems such as through the floor testosterone levels, watery semen, penile/testicle shrinkage, terrible prostate pain, lack of cognitive thinking etc. Do not underestimate these.

I met a guy who took dustateride for a few days (after finasteride for 2 weeks) and it completely destroyed him. He went from being extremely clever to being unable to think straight. He explained to me that he had to drop out of university as he couldn't do the work anymore despite it being easy to him prior to that. He now works in tesco. He also went from what he described as hypersexual to having the libido of a 5 year old, watery semen and all the works. He also explained to me how he became emotionally dead and cant feel emotions anymore.

All of these things are quite common on propecia help.

I think it's sad that some people play this down. Yes, its a minority who are unlucky but i thought id be fine too and i wasn't. It's a risk that people should be aware about. Understand how finasteride works - it inhibits an important homrone in the male body. This is serious business.

 

[Wuffer]

Here is a great study showing how powerful the nocebo phenomenon actually is. And they are even using Finasteride as a test drug:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract

From what I’ve seen of the blood tests on propeciahelp, most of the hormone results come back normal? Testosterone is rarely, if ever, below the normal range. The main problem as I thought it was is that the people have developed an androgen intolerance. This is the reason that they do not respond to testosterone replacement therapy; their hormones are within normal range.

Everything you are mentioning, again, is circumstantial and anecdotal evidence. I've known dozens of people claiming the same things with different meds. Actually, I work with a woman that swears she has been permanently poisoned by diet code (aspartame). This doesn't mean it’s true; just because you know someone or multiple people that claim things don’t make it any more or less true. Look on the internet; you will find forums with over 20,000 members swearing up and down that aliens exist, and that they have been victims of abduction. There are even alien abduction help forums! We all know its bullshit, but these people believe it 100%, and they are so locked into their beliefs that nothing will ever change them.

Another thing is I can absolutely guarantee that the fear mongering tactics have tricked way more people into believing Finasteride has ruined their lives than it has actually ruined. I am 100% certain this to be the case; I have no evidence or proof, but I know it has. Propeciahelp.com absolutely uses fear to convince people. It’s not the right way to go about helping people; it effectively manipulates peoples weaknesses, and keeps them depressed and convinced that they are the victim of an incurable disorder. It does it extremely convincingly too. Without a doubt, if anyone convinced themselves 100% that they would have permanent sexual dysfunction, they would experience the symptoms immediately and indefinitely.

I’ve been though bouts of extreme anxiety in my life. A natural body response is significant shrinkage of your package. Sometimes this lasted weeks on end for me. In these states, I was never able to get it up, and it had no sexual feeling or thoughts either. This was always coupled with brain fog, fatigue, weakness, depression, and a host of other symptoms that made me feel like sh*t. I experienced symptoms that are explained EXACTLY like people on propeciahelp do, for weeks on end, way before I ever touched finasteride. What’s particularly frustrating for me, as I genuinely want to help all these people, is that no one will even give this theory a second thought. I am always dismissed as yet another closed-minded idiot that’s telling them everything is in their head.

If everyone is so desperate to find a solution that they resort to self-medicating with hormones (which is the worst idea in the world) why not consider the possibility that something else is causing your problems?

 

[Mens Rea]

Here is a great study showing how powerful the nocebo phenomenon actually is. And they are even using Finasteride as a test drug:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract

I find your continued comparisons quite insulting to be honest. The links between what finasteride does and the claimed side effects are very strong even at the most basic medical levels.

From what I’ve seen of the blood tests on propeciahelp, most of the hormone results come back normal? Testosterone is rarely, if ever, below the normal range. The main problem as I thought it was is that the people have developed an androgen intolerance. This is the reason that they do not respond to testosterone replacement therapy; their hormones are within normal range.

Almost every poster on that board will present with hormone problems if they are screened in enough detail. I've yet to see a guy with perfect T/E, thyroids, adrenals (inc ACTH and cortisol) levels. It's the exception, not the norm, but yes this type of guy is the worst case scenario.

So, no, AR is not the "main problem" at all. The main problem is messed up endoctrine systems thanks to finasteride. This can include completely skewed DHT and Testosterone metabolism rates. The most sinister cases MAY have permanent enzyme damage (i.e. finasteride may have actually disabled the 5AR2 from making DHT anymore). This is why so many guys with PFS actually notice their hair completely stops falling out. One guy i met was almost bald but now he's got a full head of hair (after taking 2 weeks finasteride and a few days of dustasterine before crashing).

Your comment about not being below range is a ridiculous one. If you understood bloods you would know that most of the young posters on PH should be in the top range. Being anywhere close to the bottom quartile is bad. These ranges include legimately hypogondal people and old men. Why would you base your interpretations on these? Are you saying you must be LOWER than all these guys' derived ranges? That's the common flaw with GP's - please don't fall into this fallacy.

 

[Prop]

I believe the psychological aspect has a lot to do with the side effects

maybe can happen at beginning, but i don't think that u can suffer for years after discontinuation

the problem is to find indoubtable signs (not symptoms) of finasteride damages

maybe in some androgen resistence molecular test ...

 

[Mens Rea]

I believe the psychological aspect has a lot to do with the side effects

maybe can happen at beginning, but i don't think that u can suffer for years after discontinuation

the problem is to find indoubtable signs (not symptoms) of finasteride damages

maybe in some androgen resistence molecular test ...

Please refrain from getting carried away with all of this. If 90% of propeciahelp fixed their endoctrine imbalances i bet they'd be almost fine (minus the damage that the imbalances have already caused!).

Mew and awor have really pushed this theory but imo its far from an all-encompassing answer. It's a minor factor (partial resistance) if at all.

Frankly speaking some guys seem to be more content with an elaborate theory rather than trying to cure themselves by trying to fix their entire hormonal profile. The complexity of this and the dedications in some cases seems to be beyond most of the bigger victims. I guess the mental sides don't help in this regard. JN is an example of the "do-er" in all of this.

There is a real trend of very low 3adiolG levels and subpar uniary analysis (so says Dr C) if this doesn't prove it's all about DHT metabolism nothing does.

 

[Prop]

Frankly speaking some guys seem to be more content with an elaborate theory rather than trying to cure themselves by trying to fix their entire hormonal profile. The complexity of this and the dedications in some cases seems to be beyond most of the bigger victims. I guess the mental sides don't help in this regard. JN is an example of the "do-er" in all of this.

There is a real trend of very low 3adiolG levels and subpar uniary analysis (so says Dr C) if this doesn't prove it's all about DHT metabolism nothing does.

i'm not very deep in all theories floating around, but we need something more than 3adiolG level.
i'don't know mens, i talked with a guy that go worst tringfixing hormons ...

but Of course if it's the only resource ...

 

[Mens Rea]

Frankly speaking some guys seem to be more content with an elaborate theory rather than trying to cure themselves by trying to fix their entire hormonal profile. The complexity of this and the dedications in some cases seems to be beyond most of the bigger victims. I guess the mental sides don't help in this regard. JN is an example of the "do-er" in all of this.

There is a real trend of very low 3adiolG levels and subpar uniary analysis (so says Dr C) if this doesn't prove it's all about DHT metabolism nothing does.

i'm not very deep in all theories floating around, but we need something more than 3adiolG level.
i'don't know mens, i talked with a guy that go worst tringfixing hormons ...

but Of course if it's the only resource ...

Of course you did. It's a massively complex thing and 90% of attempts i see are horribly uneducated and dangerous.

The PFS sufferer is up against is for a few reasons:

1) Because his GP will dismiss him
2) Even if he doesn't it's expensive to get a full hormonal profile
3) Its even more expensive to get the right endo. There is only 2 or 3 i reckon actually are really helping patients. One is Dr Crisler.
4) Our bodies are in stable conditions - its reset to new defaults. It can be difficult to "restart" this
5) There is usually more than one thing wrong (adrendals, thyroids, tesosterone...) they all need to be addressed with the most tailored of protocol to stand a good chance of real recovery.


Think about it. Every patient basically needs a different protocol (different combination of treatments) with different dosages, duration and tolerances. This needs the utmost of care and regular bloods to monitor exact progress.

I'm starting arimdex treatment soon and ill be monitoring my progress extremely closely starting with tiny doses. Weekly bloods etc. I will incorporate clomid concurrently mid-protocol if i feel it could help stimulate my FSH more. It's all about the weekly bloods careful monitoring and good judgement. Most people just don't have this available to them...

I'm not saying this will recover me but its the type of thing sufferers need to try - systematically. Without such elaborate efforts its no surprise many sufferers remain frustrated...

 

[Prop]

Of course you did. It's a massively complex thing.

yes