Difference In Serum Dht 1 Mg Finasteride Vs 5 Mg

[michel sapin]

someone knows the difference in term of dht inhibition between 1 mg and 5 mg propecia .
In term of serum dht and scalp dht . thx

 

[BaldingHelpMe]

Forget about finasteride, just get on dutasteride already! It's not that much difference between 1mg of finasteride and 5mg.

 

[That Guy]

I've repeatedly read that finasteride lowers DHT 60-70% regardless of dosage and that it continues to do its thing for up to 4 days after taking a single dose.

EDIT: A study done in the late 90s shows that there is "maximal decrease" in both scalp and serum DHT from doses as low as .2mg to 5mg

 

[michel sapin]

that study is partially false , propecia doesnt lower scalp dht to 62% but only 41 %
http://hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=112823
look at that thread and the graph

 

[michel sapin]

and if i ask , it is because i have seen many post where higher dose of propecia provided better result .
you need to reach the spot where you inhibit enough dht to stop balding , and even if between 1 mg and 5 mg ther is a slight difference , maybe it can do the trick. without switching to duta if you are prone to sides .

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

that study is partially false , propecia doesnt lower scalp dht to 62% but only 41 %
http://hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=112823
look at that thread and the graph

There are multiple studies showing 60% scalp inhibition of propecia, as well as a flat response curve.

 

[That Guy]

"Hey guys, does anyone know the difference between scalp and serum DHT depending on dosage?"

*Posts link to study*

"No, I know that's false because of this graph someone else shared on this other forum"

f***.

 

[michel sapin]

no offense guys , but there are some many conflicting data . So that means micro dose of fina in order to avoid side effect are bullshit . you got the same sides if it inhibits the same amount of serum dht

 

[michel sapin]

with the study you quote , it would be smarter to take 5 mg per day, if it inhibits 69% scalp dht

 

[jetlife1]

Michel, idk why I keep replying to your threads because they seem really repetitive.

Once again, it is not the scalp or serum DHT percentages that matter, but it is the 5AR Type 2 DHT that dictates male pattern baldness. finasteride and dutasteride greatly reduce this enough to stop progressive hair loss in most men with even some regrowth of miniaturized hair.

Why is it that you are so concerned about the scalp and serum DHT levels? Some DHT is good for you.

 

[That Guy]

no offense guys , but there are some many conflicting data . So that means micro dose of fina in order to avoid side effect are bullshit . you got the same sides if it inhibits the same amount of serum dht

with the study you quote , it would be smarter to take 5 mg per day, if it inhibits 69% scalp dht

Don't want side effects? The clear solution is take whatever drug inhibits 5AR II DHT the most!

Solid reasoning here.

 

[cyrusthegreat@hotmail.com]

Once again, it is not the scalp or serum DHT percentages that matter, but it is the 5AR Type 2 DHT that dictates male pattern baldness. finasteride and dutasteride greatly reduce this enough to stop progressive hair loss in most men with even some regrowth of miniaturized hair.

How does one distinguish dht reduced from type 2 5ar from types 1 or 3? I wasn't aware there was a difference.

 

[jetlife1]

How does one distinguish dht reduced from type 2 5ar from types 1 or 3? I wasn't aware there was a difference.

http://www.beIgraviacentre.com/blog/the-different-forms-of-dht-and-what-they-mean-for-hair-loss/

There is no link for type 1 or 3 and hair loss. Only type 2 is found to cause it.

 

[cyrusthegreat@hotmail.com]

http://www.beIgraviacentre.com/blog/the-different-forms-of-dht-and-what-they-mean-for-hair-loss/

There is no link for type 1 or 3 and hair loss. Only type 2 is found to cause it.

I don't believe their claim has any merit. I've never seen any reputable source distinguish between the actions of dht reduced by the different 5ars. Dht reduced from 5ar1 is identical to 5ar2. What's different is where and to what degree the various 5ars are expressed. From a study by Chen et al (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8944337):

"The type 1 isozyme ... is located mainly in sebocytes but also in epidermal and follicular keratinocytes, dermal papilla cells and sweat glands as well as in fibroblasts from genital and non-genital skin. The type 2 isozyme ... is located mainly in the epididymis, seminal vesicles, prostate and fetal genital skin as well as in the inner root sheath of the hair follicle and in fibroblasts from normal adult genital skin"

So , while 5ar2 is more strongly correlated with male pattern baldness due to its expression in the follicle root sheath, 5ar1 may yet play a role, at least for some, considering this bit of fact and supporting evidence provided by the dutasteride phase 2 male pattern baldness study and Rittmaster et al.

 

[jetlife1]

I have seen many sources (actually almost all) say that 5AR2 is responsible for male pattern baldness including my own dermatologist. Just google it and you will see. These are doctors who literally study this stuff for a living so it's pretty bold of you to make a claim saying otherwise. There was even a strictly 5AR1 inhibitor tested that did nothing to slow hair loss in men even though it was more potent at inhibiting it than finasteride is at inhibiting 5AR2. I forget the name though (I think MK-something).

Also, Rittmaster gave testosterone injections to men deficient in 5AR2, not born without it. It is possible that these injections raised 5AR2 (not 5AR1) high enough to induce hair loss. Also, another possibility is that any sudden change in hormone levels can cause temporary hair loss. Lastly, this study is hardly ever cited anywhere and I have never seen the actual study so it's pretty sketchy to me. You sure he doesn't work for Glaxo and is trying to promote dutasteride? Lol

The 5AR2 deficient males have very low 5AR2 levels and normal 5AR1 levels. They do not go bald. Look at the following link:
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/924291-overview#a5


Every study/source besides the one study you are referring to that is very hard to find evidence of says the 5AR2 is responsible for hair loss.

*Drops mic*

 

[michel sapin]

excuse me that guy but in this study 0,2 mg inhibit 68% serum dht and 5 mg 72 % , so it might produce almost the same sides

 

[cyrusthegreat@hotmail.com]

I have seen many sources (actually almost all) say that 5AR2 is responsible for male pattern baldness including my own dermatologist. Just google it and you will see. These are doctors who literally study this stuff for a living so it's pretty bold of you to make a claim saying otherwise. There was even a strictly 5AR1 inhibitor tested that did nothing to slow hair loss in men even though it was more potent at inhibiting it than finasteride is at inhibiting 5AR2. I forget the name though (I think MK-something).

Also, Rittmaster gave testosterone injections to men deficient in 5AR2, not born without it. It is possible that these objections raised 5AR2 (not 5AR1) high enough to induce hair loss. Also, another possibility is that any sudden change in hormone levels can cause temporary hair loss. Lastly, this study is hardly ever cited anywhere and I have never seen the actual study so it's pretty sketchy to me. You sure he doesn't work for Glaxo and is trying to promote dutasteride? Lol

Every study/source besides the one study you are referring to that is very hard to find evidence of says the 5AR2 is responsible for hair loss.

*Drops mic*

We've had this argument before. Please understand that I only argue for clarity and to gain a better understand of this disease. I don't represent dutasteride.

First, concerning the claim brought up in this thread, their is no difference in structure and action between dht reduced by 5ar2 and 5ar1 from what I can see. I've not seen any source to distinguish between the two. Belgravia's blog post doesn't suffice.

Second, I will never and have never argued against the data showing the correlation between 5ar2 and male pattern loss. I believe that it is the single biggest factor given what's known today. I only suggest that it's possible that 5ar1 may play a role in modulating hair loss for some. Just because the experimental 5ar1 inhibitor study didn't impact the one study group doesn't prove anything. Yes, it's one data point, but so is the fact that many don't respond to finasteride or see accelerated loss while using it even years after the initial shed. The catch all explanation of hormone balance disruption by finasteride has never been proven as the cause of further or accelerated loss for those cases.

If dht plays a contributing role in male pattern baldness, which data suggests, then it's not unreasonable to suggest that dht from 5ar1, which is identical to 5ar2 reduced dht from all I've seen, may also be in play. I've read in the past that something like 25 to 40% of total dht in the body is attributed to 5ar1, while almost all the rest is due to 5ar2. If even all 5ar1 is inhibited, then the resulting dht reduction is similar to that of a very low and ineffective dose of finasteride. This may be one reason that the 5ar1 inhib hair loss study didn't show any short term impact to hair loss.

The reason the possibility of 5ar1's role remains for me is the dutasteride and finasteride dosing data. Comparing 0.5mg and 2.5mg dutasteride at 6 months shows 4% serum dht difference, almost 30% Scalp dht difference, and nearly 16% haircount difference. 5mg finasteride vs 0.1 mg dutasteride shows 3% serum dht difference with finasteride doing more, almost 10% Scalp dht difference in favor of finasteride, and nearly the same haircount with a slight edge to dutasteride. I can't find an explanation for this. Is the continuing improvement in hair counts due to further suppression of 5ar2 in the scalp from increasing dutasteride dose, or is it the further reduction of dht by supression of 5ar1? If it's all due to 5ar2, then why did 0.1 mg dutasteride do better in hair counts? 5mg finasteride reduced both blood and scalp dht better than 0.1mg dutasteride by acting primarily on 5ar2, but dutasteride did better on hair by acting on both 5ar1 and 2. The higher dutasteride doses also suggest that at some point serum dht plays a smaller role than scalp dht. Most scalp dht is due to 5ar1.

 

[jetlife1]

Yeah I hear you man. Who knows. I truly do think 5AR1 is negligible to male pattern baldness at best due to there being a lot of evidence of this. I think the greater hair growth in that study was due to Dutasteride inhibiting slightly more 5AR2. However, I believe in the long run that finasteride/dutasteride are pretty similar in effectiveness in stopping male pattern baldness with regrowth for some. dutasteride possibly reaches its peak sooner than finasteride due to the higher inhibition levels. Maybe there is a certain threshold of DHT that needs to be reduced and that they both exceed this threshold. All we can do is be consistent with taking it and hold out for future treatments. If they work for you, maybe they'll be all you need.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

We've had this argument before. Please understand that I only argue for clarity and to gain a better understand of this disease. I don't represent dutasteride.

First, concerning the claim brought up in this thread, their is no difference in structure and action between dht reduced by 5ar2 and 5ar1 from what I can see. I've not seen any source to distinguish between the two. Belgravia's blog post doesn't suffice.

Second, I will never and have never argued against the data showing the correlation between 5ar2 and male pattern loss. I believe that it is the single biggest factor given what's known today. I only suggest that it's possible that 5ar1 may play a role in modulating hair loss for some. Just because the experimental 5ar1 inhibitor study didn't impact the one study group doesn't prove anything. Yes, it's one data point, but so is the fact that many don't respond to finasteride or see accelerated loss while using it even years after the initial shed. The catch all explanation of hormone balance disruption by finasteride has never been proven as the cause of further or accelerated loss for those cases.

If dht plays a contributing role in male pattern baldness, which data suggests, then it's not unreasonable to suggest that dht from 5ar1, which is identical to 5ar2 reduced dht from all I've seen, may also be in play. I've read in the past that something like 25 to 40% of total dht in the body is attributed to 5ar1, while almost all the rest is due to 5ar2. If even all 5ar1 is inhibited, then the resulting dht reduction is similar to that of a very low and ineffective dose of finasteride. This may be one reason that the 5ar1 inhib hair loss study didn't show any short term impact to hair loss.

The reason the possibility of 5ar1's role remains for me is the dutasteride and finasteride dosing data. Comparing 0.5mg and 2.5mg dutasteride at 6 months shows 4% serum dht difference, almost 30% Scalp dht difference, and nearly 16% haircount difference. 5mg finasteride vs 0.1 mg dutasteride shows 3% serum dht difference with finasteride doing more, almost 10% Scalp dht difference in favor of finasteride, and nearly the same haircount with a slight edge to dutasteride. I can't find an explanation for this. Is the continuing improvement in hair counts due to further suppression of 5ar2 in the scalp from increasing dutasteride dose, or is it the further reduction of dht by supression of 5ar1? If it's all due to 5ar2, then why did 0.1 mg dutasteride do better in hair counts? 5mg finasteride reduced both blood and scalp dht better than 0.1mg dutasteride by acting primarily on 5ar2, but dutasteride did better on hair by acting on both 5ar1 and 2. The higher dutasteride doses also suggest that at some point serum dht plays a smaller role than scalp dht. Most scalp dht is due to 5ar1.

You're being interesting, good work mate. Thanks for writing.

In another thread, @whatever is speculating that the people who get regrowth on finasteride simply have higher estrogen.

Could it be that dutasteride's greater performance than finasteride is due to a greater increase in estrogen, and not due to 5ar1 vs 5ar2?

 

[michel sapin]

i just get the result from my blood test . and in fact , 5 mg propecia inhibits exactly the same amount of dht as 1 mg in the blood . My dht as 0,14 ( range 0,33-1,20) in september 2015 while taking 1 mg . And now on 5 mg my dht level is 0,13 .
But the strange thing is the fact that propecia caused a steady decline in dht . For me after 6 month of propecia my dht level was 0,27 then 6 month later they were 0,14 .
this level are very low but i am still thinning at y hairline ; i think i am fucked , i can't afford to drop more dht , because my oestrogen will raise too much .