Do men need dht?

[evildude]

i see a lot of questions such as these, regarding use of finasteride, but wouldn't an even more interesting question be what are the long term effects of 5-ar inhibition? which is what finasteride actually does.

what does 5-ar really do? other than convert testosterone to dht.

 

[RaginDemon]

nobody has a confirmed answer for this one

 

[Pondle]

5 alpha reductase does do other things apart from convert T to DHT. However, the clinical significance of these other functions is unclear. The 5AR deficient pseudohermaphrodites seem able to cope with the relative absence of 5AR. They have urogenital defects at birth, small prostates and biochemical abnormalities but they apparently have no other clinically important disorders. They don't experience male pattern baldness, BPH or prostate cancer.

 

[evildude]

yes, that is true, but the difference between pseudohermaphrodites and finasteride users, is that the former always was like that, while finasteride users have changed their hormonal profile to become such.

what other purposes does 5-ar have and in particular type 2(that's the one finasterdie inhibits?)?

 

[Pondle]

Yeah but men can go through even more radical hormonal changes - think castration, HRT...

Merck's scientists told the FDA: "The observation in these men with 5-alpha-Reductase deficiency, as well as other investigations, have resulted in the identification of distinct physiological roles for testosterone compared with those for dihydrotestosterone. Testosterone, the principal androgen in man, is necessary for normal spermatogenesis, bone and muscle mass and male libido and potency. Dihydrotestosterone, or DHT, does not appear to have any essential physiological role in the adult male but is involved in the production of beard and body hair, enlargement of the prostate with age and development of male pattern baldness."

If you look at the link in my last post you'll see the range of other functions identified for 5AR. 5AR is involved in the production of neurosteroids and could in theory have an indirect effect on mood and behaviour. Some of the conditions related to a relative lack of those neurosteroids (premenstrual and postpartum dysphoric disorder, catamenial epilepsy) are of relevance to women rather than men. It's also important to note that the relative importance of 5AR1 and 5AR2 in the production of neurosteroids is not clear. I'm guessing that 5AR1 is a lot more significant in this respect, because it is actually found in brain tissue. There was a clinical study using dutasteride, which inhibits 5AR1, to treat women with menstrually-related mood disorders.

 

[evildude]

Yeah but men can go through even more radical hormonal changes - think castration, HRT...

so there are worse things than finasteride. i don't see your point though...

Merck's scientists told the FDA: "The observation in these men with 5-alpha-Reductase deficiency, as well as other investigations, have resulted in the identification of distinct physiological roles for testosterone compared with those for dihydrotestosterone. Testosterone, the principal androgen in man, is necessary for normal spermatogenesis, bone and muscle mass and male libido and potency. Dihydrotestosterone, or DHT, does not appear to have any essential physiological role in the adult male but is involved in the production of beard and body hair, enlargement of the prostate with age and development of male pattern baldness."

which doesn't really apply to my concern. dht seems to have no apparant function after puberty, but what about 5 alpha reductase?

If you look at the link in my last post you'll see the range of other functions identified for 5AR. 5AR is involved in the production of neurosteroids and could in theory have an indirect effect on mood and behaviour. Some of the conditions related to a relative lack of those neurosteroids (premenstrual and postpartum dysphoric disorder, catamenial epilepsy) are of relevance to women rather than men. It's also important to note that the relative importance of 5AR1 and 5AR2 in the production of neurosteroids is not clear. I'm guessing that 5AR1 is a lot more significant in this respect, because it is actually found in brain tissue. There was a clinical study using dutasteride, which inhibits 5AR1, to treat women with menstrually-related mood disorders.

which goes to show my concern in the opening post might be justified.

 

[Pondle]

No one has ever produced any evidence that the pseudohermaphrodites have a higher risk of neurological diseases attendant upon their lack of 5AR/DHT.

 

[evildude]

No one has ever produced any evidence that the pseudohermaphrodites have a higher risk of neurological diseases attendant upon their lack of 5AR/DHT.

somehow, this is far from enough to put my mind at ease.

saying that one thing hasn't been proven, is not the same as saying the opposite has been proven. in this case, higher risk of neurological diseases has not been proven, but no higher risk hasn't been proven either. so it really is anyone's guess.

(by proven, i mean of course substantiated by hard evidence. not actually 'proven').

i have taken a small dosage of finasteride every day for a few days now, but i think i'll stop. try other things and hope the rate of my hairloss does not increase, until something better comes on the market.

 

[Pondle]

somehow, this is far from enough to put my mind at ease.

saying that one thing hasn't been proven, is not the same as saying the opposite has been proven. in this case, higher risk of neurological diseases has not been proven, but no higher risk hasn't been proven either. so it really is anyone's guess.

(by proven, i mean of course substantiated by hard evidence. not actually 'proven').

i have taken a small dosage of finasteride every day for a few days now, but i think i'll stop. try other things and hope the rate of my hairloss does not increase, until something better comes on the market.

If you want perfect certainty about any medicine, you'll never get it. Every drug carries some element of risk and uncertainty. It is impossible to study the relationship between a given treatment and every single medical condition known to man - especially those (like neurodegenerative diseases) where pathogenesis is not yet understood.

Androgens and 5AR clearly play some role in brain function. They are imperfectly understood. To date I have never ever seen a neurologist postulate a link between 5AR deficiency or lack of DHT and neurological disease. Of course, there may be a link. But equally, your normal male 5AR and DHT levels may be far bigger risk factors for neurodegenerative disease. Doctors know that women are more likely than men to have depression, anxiety or an eating disorder, while men are at higher risk of Parkinson's disease.

If something 'better' than Propecia ever comes to market, it will presumably carry its own risks! ;-)

 

[paximperia]

This question was asked a few days ago. viewtopic.php?f=43&t=40983

 

[abcdefg]

Really finasteride is kind of an old drug considering how much our understanding of hairloss has increased. In 3 or 4 years we will probably have much safer anti androgens like ascj-9 or some topical dht inhibitor or an inhibitor of the downstream effects of dht. This would be much safer then lowering dht system wide. So its your call whether to wait for a better treatment or use what we have and take the risks involved.

 

[Pondle]

Waiting for the 'miracle weapon' that will turn the tide against hair loss reminds me of Hitler's attitude at the end of WW2! :laugh:

Every month you delay you'll lose more hair, and never get it back - unless HM is commercialised, which may never happen, or at least not for many years, and even if it does happen, it might not be affordable. You have to either decide to tackle your hair loss with the currently available treatments, or learn to live with it. There is no middle way.

 

[Bryan]

That's right: "time is of the essence".

 

[RaginDemon]

Waiting for the 'miracle weapon' that will turn the tide against hair loss reminds me of Hitler's attitude at the end of WW2! :laugh:

Every month you delay you'll lose more hair, and never get it back - unless HM is commercialised, which may never happen, or at least not for many years, and even if it does happen, it might not be affordable. You have to either decide to tackle your hair loss with the currently available treatments, or learn to live with it. There is no middle way.

well said!

 

[evildude]

Waiting for the 'miracle weapon' that will turn the tide against hair loss reminds me of Hitler's attitude at the end of WW2! :laugh:

Every month you delay you'll lose more hair, and never get it back - unless HM is commercialised, which may never happen, or at least not for many years, and even if it does happen, it might not be affordable. You have to either decide to tackle your hair loss with the currently available treatments, or learn to live with it. There is no middle way.

who said anything about a mircale weapon? what i want, is something that isn't absorbed systemically. i am skeptical of all drugs, not just finasteride. the idea of taking drugs for every possible minor and major disorder is imo close to insane. then again, most members on this site are bat sh*t crazy.

 

[Pondle]

who said anything about a mircale weapon? what i want, is something that isn't absorbed systemically. i am skeptical of all drugs, not just finasteride. the idea of taking drugs for every possible minor and major disorder is imo close to insane. then again, most members on this site are bat $#iT crazy.

Then you're pretty much out of options, unless you fancy ordering a certain experimental compound from China and a spot of DIY chemistry (didn't think so).

If you're sceptical of drugs, and don't consider male pattern baldness to be worth treating, then don't treat it! :dunno:

 

[abcdefg]

I can see what he means. Its hard not to be skeptical of treating male pattern baldness with a hormone altering drug when as far as I know science cant answer what exactly even causes male pattern baldness. How do make drugs that attempt to treat a disease when we dont know what causes it? Altering system wide levels of dht instead of say trying to tackle the problem of androgen sensitivity for the hair follicles or why they are sensitive to the dht we have in the first place doesnt seem to be a good way to fight male pattern baldness to me. I can see both sides. There is a good degree of risk with propecia, but on the other hand you dont have really any other options. If you can wait for 3-4 years id say there will be much safer ways of doing what propecia already does, so if its really slow or doesnt bother you much thats always an option. I also am not a large fan of prescription drugs in general especially ones that must be taken for a lifetime but have not been studied nearly that long.

 

[Bryan]

who said anything about a mircale weapon? what i want, is something that isn't absorbed systemically. i am skeptical of all drugs, not just finasteride. the idea of taking drugs for every possible minor and major disorder is imo close to insane. then again, most members on this site are bat $#iT crazy.

Then you're pretty much out of options, unless you fancy ordering a certain experimental compound from China and a spot of DIY chemistry (didn't think so).

Or he could try Proxiphen, if he has the money. Dr. Proctor claims that Proxiphen is "unquestionably more effective than Propecia" (his exact words), and it's just a topical without any systemic absorption.

 

[pratc]

My son has been on Proxiphen, finasteride and nizoral. for one year. I will post some pictures soon (when I get round to working out how). I think there has been maintenance (and even a bit of improvement) which is very encouraging because the hair loss from Easter ('06) to his summer vacation was dramatic i.e. not noticable to obvious. My other younger son has just started the same treatment but his problem is more at the front rather than the crown. Proxiphen is expensive but I must say how generous the company has been with extra phials delivered to the UK plus other freebies. They have always answered emails promptly and informatively. Also, the phials last longer than they say.

 

[italianguy]

This is simply my intuition , my answer is YES MEN DO NEED DHT !!!!

It is NOT simply facial hair and scalp hair loss , DHT is huge in libido , sexual performance, sexual enjoyment , neurology and undoubtedly many many other core functions

DHT is amplified T basically , DHT makes one more masculine

finasteride is the best hair loss drug available now, but the basic approach is tragic - to reduce systemic masculinity to reduce hair loss

an analogy to how finasteride works would be turning off a vacumn cleaner by blowing up the electric power plant - LOL :lost: