dutasteride dosing schedule

[JWM]

Someone clarify this for me please. I have read several testimonials as of late that many are doing well on one dutasteride pill every five days.

Is this the equivalent of 5mg of finasteride that we have talked about in the past? I was under the impression that TWO dutasteride pills a week equalled 5 mg of finasteride. If one dutasteride pill was taken every 5 days, then that would be considerbaly less than twice a week wouldn't it?

Thanks!

 

[JWM]

I am contemplating on taking dutasteride twice a week with 3 days rest between. It would look like Mon, Fri, Tues, Sat and so on.

I don't want to go overboard and risk the dreaded frontal shed I had a year ago with daily dutasteride.

 

[CCS]

one every 5 days is equivalent to 5mg finasteride. twice a week is one every 3.5 days, which is not much more than one every 5 days.

0.1mg/day dutasteride is equivalent to finasteride 5mg. 0.5mg every 5 days is kind of different if the half life is taken into account. Bryan estimated the dose has a half life of 2-3 days here. I guess you should be OK then. I just was a bit worried about that half life being an issue in the begining, expecially since it takes over 20 days for 0.1mg/day to get down to where finasteride reduces DHT. Over 28 days, actually. It gets close in 20 days, though. I just figured if you do two a week, or load with 1 per day for 4 days and then do one every 5 days, that would be better.

Bryan does not believe there is any study that showed frontal shedding, and thinks I remember wrong. I know I remember right. the only thing i could have messed up on was not spotting that a study was fake. I just don't know who would have a motive to write a fake study that looked very legit and had many many sets of raw data. I also don't know who would have a motive to pay for the study after GSK already did one. I'd like Bryan to find the raw data on the GSK study and make sure he remembers right that it was only measured on the back.

Finally, I don't know the difference between proscar and propecia, except that in the back, proscar does regrow about 20% more hair than propecia.

I wish I knew what to believe. I don't expect a shed. I am just worried I won't get as much regrowth as I can get if I use a high dose. But if testosterone is an issue, I am using a topical anti-androgen now, so that should mean I can up the dose if I want.

 

[JWM]

So College, would you say my dosing schedule sounds good? My goal is to get a good deal of type 2 inhibition and a minimal amount of type 1.

I have been using finasteride for 8 years and it has definitely lost its effect on me.

I tried dutasteride, one a day, a year ago for 8 months and it thinned the hell out of the hairline/temple area. HOWEVER, my hair got a little better when I dropped the dutasteride down to twice a week and added finasteride on the remianing days. This makes me think that perhaps I was rebounding favorably to a LOWER dutasteride dose.

 

[JWM]

Of course I could always pop one every 5th day which would look like: Mon, Sat, Thurs, Tues etc. Bet then it brings up the issue of half-life again

 

[Guest]

Why not take it 3 times a week like i will be.

Every monday, weds, fri.


You still get 95% of type 2 inhibited I think, and not very much type I.

 

[CCS]

taking the finasteride on those 5 days gave the initial strength of an extra dutasteride per week, but did not help the half life of the dutasteride, so it never reached the higher strength or 3 per week.

bryan estimated the blood concentration at steady state with 0.1mg per day, but i don't know how he did it, since it is not linear with dose like the higher doses. he read the graph wrong and labeled the 0.5 mg per day at 40 instead of 30 micro grams per liter.

I think it is very critical to find that study, though at least I have a topical anti-androgen to back me up agaist the testosterone.

once you reach steady state, you should be able to get by on one every 5 days without the finasteride, though you can take one finasteride on the 3rd day if you are really worried. You don't need the finasteride every day.

one every 5 days should not touch type one, but will reduce DHT from type 2 by only 75-80%. If you want to reduce 95% of type 2, you will reduce 5ar1 by about 15% at 3x per week. Mixing in finasteride will not make a bit of difference except by reducing the amount of dutasteride needed to inhibit 5ar1. Once there is less 5ar2 to bind with, the extra dutasteride just goes after the 5ar1.

 

[JWM]

I am hesitant to get such a high inhibition of type 2 for afear of the test spike. Hence my reasoning for only using dutasteride twice a week. I guess my main concern was that if I was going to be suing dutasteride twice a week, would it be better to take it on set days (like EVERY Wed and Sun) or every 4th day like I indicated above.

 

[Guest]

What are the consequences of a test spike?

 

[CCS]

depends which is easier to remember. I would think set days would be easier. Since I am using an anti-androgen, I guess i don't need as much dutasteride, even though I could handle the spike better.

I'm not convinced testosterone and dutasteride tell hairs to do the same thing, or tell all androgen receptors to do the same thing. We know it tells body hairs and head hairs the opposite, so why are all scalp hairs the same, when male pattern baldness usually starts in front?

We say the front is just more sensitive to androgens. But maybe it actually has a different response to doses of various androgens. I'm just not convinced the human body is as black and white and 1+1=2 as has been suggested, and i'm i know I saw what i saw in that study. i just don't know if it was bogus or if 50 people (i don't remember the actual number) is too small a sample size. in fact, the 50 people were divided into groups by dose, and I don't remember the magnitude of the difference between the front and back.

the front did not shed at high doses. It just regrow half or less hair as the back, whereas proscar was closer to even. So if someone is just maintaining on finasteride, the switch could make a difference, since the high dutasteride dose regrew less hair in front than the proscar did.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan does not believe there is any study that showed frontal shedding, and thinks I remember wrong. I know I remember right.

So have you found it yet?

I'd like Bryan to find the raw data on the GSK study and make sure he remembers right that it was only measured on the back.

Here's a paragraph from the Clinical Information section:

"Therapeutic effect was assessed by measuring hair counts of the vertex region of the scalp using macrophotographic techniques at baseline, 12 weeks, 24 weeks, and at the follow-up visit at 36 weeks (12 weeks after study medication discontinuation). The primary efficacy parameter was the hair count in a 1-inch diameter circle, with a target area of 0.79 square inches, surrounding a tattoo. Results are presented in Table 1 and reflect last observation carried forward (LOCF) (weeks 12 and 24) or at the last visit (ALV) (week 36) analyses of the intent-to-treat patient population."

Nowhere else in the text is there even a single mention of the words "temple", "hairline", or "shedding".

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

bryan estimated the blood concentration at steady state with 0.1mg per day, but i don't know how he did it, since it is not linear with dose like the higher doses. he read the graph wrong and labeled the 0.5 mg per day at 40 instead of 30 micro grams per liter.

EXCUSE ME, but the actual figure given by Glaxo for the average concentration of dutasteride in the blood at 0.5 mg/day at steady-state is 40 ng/mL. I merely used that same accepted figure.

My estimate for the 0.1 mg/day dose was based on the assumption that that dose has nearly identical effects as a 5 mg/day dose of finasteride. I put that vertical line right about where that dose of finasteride would appear on the graph (for type 2 inhibition, of course).

one every 5 days should not touch type one, but will reduce DHT from type 2 by only 75-80%.

Well, if 0.1 mg/day of dutasteride really is nearly the same as 5 mg/day of finasteride, it ought to get pretty close to the same 90% inhibition that finasteride achieves. Looking at that one graph I posted, you can see that after 28 days, the 0.1 mg/day dutasteride dose had already surpassed 80%, and hadn't quite leveled-out yet. My guess it that it would have eventually hit 85% - 90% or so.

Mixing in finasteride will not make a bit of difference except by reducing the amount of dutasteride needed to inhibit 5ar1. Once there is less 5ar2 to bind with, the extra dutasteride just goes after the 5ar1.

Did you read that alt.baldspot post from Kevin Smith that I re-posted a while back? He made what I considered to be a very persuasive argument that taking finasteride along with dutasteride will be virtually completely wasted. Dutasteride is so powerful, finasteride simply can't compete with it.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

Bryan,

http://www.regrowshair.com/hair-loss-tre ... ng-charts/
I did not read GSK's report, so I was not aware of the 40 they reported. I got the 33 from the second graph at this link.

That was very good of you to base 0.1mg/day off the proscar. I wish I had thought of that.

As for the 90% DHT inhibition of finasteride, I am aware that 5ar2 is inhibited 90% by proscar, as is shown in the graph.
http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/dutasteride2b.htm
I assumed that graph C meant that 90% of 5ar2 molecules were shut down, and that this number was calculated. When I saw the 75% DHT inhibition in graph A for proscar, I thought that was the calculated inhibition of DHT made from 5ar, and not the measured scalp DHT levels. That is where I have been getting this 75% figure from. I figured that since the remaining 10% of 5ar molecules had a lot more testosterone to go around, they were active more of the time. Since they can't measure how much 5ar is still non-complexed, and can't calculate everything without some measurements, I should have known that they probably defined 5ar inhibition based on the amound of DHT production inhibition, and that the numbers don't reflect the actual 5ar molecules. I stand corrected there, and now know that proscar inhibits 90% of 5ar2.

While it is less easy to see in the first link, in the second link in graph B, I now see that 0.1mg per day dutasteride actually inhibits 5% of 5ar1, not the 1-3% I used a ruler and a calculater for in the first link.

I agree that dutasteride every day or even 3x per week is so powerful finasteride can't compete with it. But at doses of once every 5 days or even twice a week, where dutasteride only inhibits 90-95% of 5ar2, I would think the finasteride would do something, though it would not be cost effective. Stand corrected as far as cautioning some people not to take finasteride and 7x week dutasteride at the same time, but the majority of my posts were just to advise people to have finasteride as a backup incase the dutasteride they bought was fake.

I really hope you are right about that study. It would be very easy to just up my dutasteride dose and get better results.

 

[Bryan]

As for the 90% DHT inhibition of finasteride, I am aware that 5ar2 is inhibited 90% by proscar, as is shown in the graph.
http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/dutasteride2b.htm
I assumed that graph C meant that 90% of 5ar2 molecules were shut down, and that this number was calculated. When I saw the 75% DHT inhibition in graph A for proscar, I thought that was the calculated inhibition of DHT made from 5ar, and not the measured scalp DHT levels. That is where I have been getting this 75% figure from. I figured that since the remaining 10% of 5ar molecules had a lot more testosterone to go around, they were active more of the time. Since they can't measure how much 5ar is still non-complexed, and can't calculate everything without some measurements, I should have known that they probably defined 5ar inhibition based on the amound of DHT production inhibition, and that the numbers don't reflect the actual 5ar molecules. I stand corrected there, and now know that proscar inhibits 90% of 5ar2.

I don't really follow most of that. Look, it's all very simple: Proscar reduces DHT from the type 2 enzyme by about 90% (graph C), and it reduces DHT from ALL sources (type 1 and type 2 enzymes combined) by about 75% (graph A).

Bryan

 

[CCS]

That's what I realized and wrote in that post. I was just explaning where my misconception came from.

Still no luck finding that study.

 

[Jacky81]

collegechemistrystudent: i am taking 0.5 mg dutasteride every day. Do you think it makes sence to add proscar??? For the front?
I think not, am i right?

 

[powersam]

mate did you read bryans post above? there is no point to taking finasteride with dutasteride. it would be like asking a toddler to help you push a piano up a flight of stairs, it just wouldnt help.


finasteride and dutasteride both do the same thing in the same way, ie stop the conversion of testosterone to dht by lowering 5 alpha reductase. its just that dutasteride is much better at it. its not a case of one works in the front and one works on the back.

 

[Jacky81]

mate did you read bryans post above? there is no point to taking finasteride with dutasteride. it would be like asking a toddler to help you push a piano up a flight of stairs, it just wouldnt help.

finasteride and dutasteride both do the same thing in the same way, ie stop the conversion of testosterone to dht by lowering 5 alpha reductase. its just that dutasteride is much better at it. its not a case of one works in the front and one works on the back.

He wrote something that proscar works better in the front than dutasteride? Am i wrong?

 

[CCS]

no. if that study exists, its results would mean that too much 5ar inhibition or testosterone in the front is not optiomal. adding proscar would do nothing for you. I was very annoyed when I saw it because it showed that their is no optimal dose for the whole head. but the GSK report only lists the back, and who in the world has the money to fund such a study and why would they perform it for a drug that is not even theirs? I wonder if what I saw was fake.

 

[powersam]

based on my own personal experience i would totally agree with the theory that there is a level of dht inhibition too high for the frontal area, or test to high. i was doing pretty well on dutasteride till i had that little gap and then took a loading dose, which obviously put my dht inhibition WAY too high, and kicked off that insane frontal shed. oddly enough i never had any sexual side effects through the whole thing, which is quite lucky i guess.