Eucapil (fluridil) rebuttal to Lipoxidil.com comments

biophysica

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Dear Forum Participants,

It has come to our attention that Lipoxidil, a company selling various hair growth formulas, has recently published our article, “Fluridil, a rationally designed topical agent for androgenetic alopecia: first clinical experience†(Dermatol Surg. 2002 Aug;28(8):678-85), on their website (lipoxidil.com) with their comments marked in red.

Publishing an article on the internet without permission from the publisher is against the law; it is considered copyright infringement (thus, the publisher of Dermatologic Surgery has been notified and is taking the appropriate legal action). Dermatologic Surgery is a very respected, high quality, peer-reviewed scientific journal (all articles are reviewed by a panel of experts in the field). Any comments or editorials are normally directed to the journal. By unilaterally publishing their comments only on their website, Lipoxidil offers no forum for rebuttal. We are responding to their remarks as follows:

1. Lipoxidil’s comment that fluridil suppresses but does not block the androgen receptor (AR).

Fluridil is an anti-androgen and may block the AR like other anti-androgens, however, we have also found that fluridil suppresses or down-regulates the AR, which in simpler terminology means fluridil reduces the actual number of AR’s in cells.

2. Lipoxidil’s comment that Dr. Sovak has commercial interest in fluridil since he is the head of Biophysica, Inc.

A clerical error by the editorial office conveying the commercial interest of the authors was addressed by the publisher of Dermatologic Surgery in an erratum published in a subsequent issue of the journal and is given here:

Dermatologic Surgery
Volume 28, Issue 10, Page 971 - October 2002
doi:10.1046/j.1524-4725.2002.281002.x

Erratum

‘In the August issue of Dermatologic Surgery, the article "Fluridil, a Rationally Designed Topical Agent for Androgenetic Alopecia: First Clinical Experience" by Sovak et al should have included the disclaimer, "M. Sovak, MD and A.L. Seligson, PhD are patent holders for the compound fluridil. This work was supported by Interpharma Praha a.s., Czech Republic." The publisher apologizes for the omission.’

3. Lipoxidil’s comment about RU-58841 and its metabolite RU-56279 having little risk of systemic effects.

In the referenced article, “Pharmacokinetics and metabolism of novel non-steroidal antiandrogens in the rat: relation of their systemic activity to the formation of a common metabolite†(J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 1994;51:47-55), the authors themselves state that the metabolite of RU-58841, RU-56279, induces a large decrease in rat prostate and seminal vesicle weight, thus indicating potent anti-androgenic activity. Although they estimate only 1% conversion to this metabolite in the rat, the possibility for anti-androgenic effects from such a quantity is real. Its elimination half-life of about 20 hours can result in long acting systemic anti-androgenic activity. Furthermore, the absence of a full toxicological report on RU-58841 in any species and the lack of human clinical data has led us to the assumption that product development has been abandoned.

4. Lipoxidil’s comment about reducing the frequency of shampooing and the use of dry shampoos.

In the clinical study, the placebo group (applying only isopropanol, i.e. rubbing alcohol) did after three months show some improvement in the anagen/telogen counts. This could be attributed to the stimulating effect of alcohol alone, and possibly the reduction in frequency of shampooing and/or use of dry shampoos. However, this change was not statistically significant. After three months, according to the study protocol, the placebo group began applying fluridil, so we do not know whether this trend would have continued. Reducing the frequency of shampooing or using dry shampoos is a personal choice, and if it did in fact increase the effectiveness of a hair growth product, many people may find it more “realistic.â€

5. Lipoxidil’s comment about three and 9-month data (placebo versus fluridil groups).

As stated above the placebo group did show some improvement in anagen/telogen counts after three months but this change was not statistically significant. After three months the fluridil group displayed a statistically significant increase in anagen and decrease in telogen count that persisted throughout the 12 month study. The placebo arm of the study, according to the protocol, began fluridil application after three months and showed a statistically significant change after 9 months (6 months of fluridil use), improving the anagen levels in these patients to that of the original fluridil group.

6. Lipoxidil’s comment that hair will fall out later.

We have heard no reports from fluridil users about an increase in hair loss after extended periods of use. To the contrary, users report a substantial reduction in hair loss, fullness of scalp hair attributable to an increase of hair diameter, as well as regrowth of vellus hair in certain cases.

We hope this clears up any confusion about fluridil and its cosmetic formulation Eucapil.

Sincerely,
Biophysica, Inc.
 

bombscience

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please summarize what the positive/negative spin on this is for us corn fed country folk....
 

funkster

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hey bomb

basically it's refuting claims by a competitor (lipoxidil who, btw, used to stock the stuff) that it's ineffective and the method of trialling the product was flawed.

In a nutshell, no-one out in the field has used it for long enough yet to definitely say it's a winner or not, but some guys are quietly optimistic.

I've been on it for about 2 months so it's way too early to comment, but I haven't experienced anything negative from it as of yet.
 

bombscience

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funkster said:
hey bomb

basically it's refuting claims by a competitor (lipoxidil who, btw, used to stock the stuff) that it's ineffective and the method of trialling the product was flawed.

In a nutshell, no-one out in the field has used it for long enough yet to definitely say it's a winner or not, but some guys are quietly optimistic.

I've been on it for about 2 months so it's way too early to comment, but I haven't experienced anything negative from it as of yet.

Thanks, keep us posted, I've read some very optimisitic outlooks on RU.
 

CCS

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i thought that was a very strong rebutal. If biophysica is a scam, it is not a business scam. this is not a drug that a car salesman is selling. these scientists are giving very compelling arguments aimed at convincing other scientists. i'm not sure how strong fluridil is, but i know it will do at least as well as rogaine or spironolactone. I'm sure if you wash your hair in a few minutes and don't drown it in water for an hour every day, most of the fluridil in your scalp will survive. And if you do drown your scalp for an hour, just let it dry afterwards and put some more in for the next 22 hours. if you shower twice a day, just make sure that one of your showers has minimal use of water on your scalp. I"m not going to use a dry shampoo. if you really need to be that dry, then sweating would be a problem. a good sweat might destroy 5 or 10% of the fluridil.

best of all, i've seen what this molecule looks like, and it looks like flutamide with a tail. flutamide is much stronger than spironolactone, so I predict that fluridil is too. the unstable tail just makes it safe.
 

Felk

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collegechemistrystudent said:
i thought that was a very strong rebutal. If biophysica is a scam, it is not a business scam. this is not a drug that a car salesman is selling. these scientists are giving very compelling arguments aimed at convincing other scientists. i'm not sure how strong fluridil is, but i know it will do at least as well as rogaine or spironolactone. I'm sure if you wash your hair in a few minutes and don't drown it in water for an hour every day, most of the fluridil in your scalp will survive. And if you do drown your scalp for an hour, just let it dry afterwards and put some more in for the next 22 hours. if you shower twice a day, just make sure that one of your showers has minimal use of water on your scalp. I"m not going to use a dry shampoo. if you really need to be that dry, then sweating would be a problem. a good sweat might destroy 5 or 10% of the fluridil.

best of all, i've seen what this molecule looks like, and it looks like flutamide with a tail. flutamide is much stronger than spironolactone, so I predict that fluridil is too. the unstable tail just makes it safe.

I am tempted to try the drug as well, as long as I make it cheaper by only using 1ml per night, closing and sealing the ampule hermetically. Any ideas on the best way to do this, college?

However for me it will only ever be a supplementary treatment. I'd be counting on it, topical finasteride, and topical spironolactone, each once a day, to fight DHT. I think you need this much if you are going without finasteride.
 

lordhair

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Felk - I'm using fluridil 1 ml a night at the moment as well

I leave the applicator on the fluridil ampule and put bluetack over the top of it

It seems to prevent any evaporation
 

powersam

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coming up to 7 months now and am pretty sure i will continue to use it until curis or HM comes out. my hair at the moment is doing pretty well i think, i have seen no more recession whatsoever and a certain amount of density has returned. in my case fluridil completely shut down my shedding, which has to be a good thing right?

nb/ i am also using finasteride.
 

CCS

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there are two reasons it need to be sealed.
1. so the alcohol does not evaporate (biggest reason)
2. so water vapor does not get in it (a very small concern, since such small amount of water won't do much over night.

Chewing gum would work, but you would have a hell of a time getting it off that sharp point the next day. A zip lock bag woul not stop evaporation completely, and you could not stand it up. saran wrap would just get cut by the tip. candle was sounds good, but crumbly, and the necessary force might break the ampule tip more. silly puddy sounds good. If you really want to get creative, get a syringe without a needle. pour the ampule into a cap or something small. suck it up in the syringe. cap the syring. some have caps. that will work perfectly, except if you push the syringe too hard during application, it will all squirt out. so a small amount of silly puddy or similar substance seems to be the winner.

What is blue tack?

Felk,
Inhibiting DHT is necessary, but you have to use other angles too, like minoxidil, unless you still have a lot of hair. if you are a diffuse thinner, you should be using minoxidil and trying some copper peptides perhaps. DHT blocking is best for people keeping their hair. and topical finasteride is still questionable.
 

Felk

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collegechemistrystudent said:
Felk,
Inhibiting DHT is necessary, but you have to use other angles too, like minoxidil, unless you still have a lot of hair. if you are a diffuse thinner, you should be using minoxidil and trying some copper peptides perhaps. DHT blocking is best for people keeping their hair. and topical finasteride is still questionable.

I know this. I will probably add minoxidil soon... if i sort out my weird chest pain. I was sure it was from finasteride, as quitting proxiphen did nothing to help, and ceasing finasteride did. However it's still lingering... i just don't want to get side effects and have to quit, possibly losing extra hair.

I will also be using proxiphen or prox-n, as well as perhaps folligen. I just really want to cover DHT, and it's questionable without oral finasteride or dutasteride.
 

powersam

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what a poor deprived place you must live in if you have no blue tack. its just the best thing ever. sticks posters to walls, mufflers to cars, can double as a condom. if your boat has a hole in it grab the blue tack. riddled with bullet holes? just add blue tack
 

JWM

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Fluridil started off with alot of promise, but has lost credibility over the years.

They lack any independant studies and the only available studies done were performed by the manufacture of the product themselves. It has been available for a few years now so you would think that someone would take interest in the stuff.

We must also understand that since the product cannot come in touch with water, it makes it a difficult topical to add for those of us who use other treatments such as minoxidil.

On top of this, the product is very high in Isopropyl alcohol which can irritate the scalp and dry out the hair.

Please understand that I am not against Fluridil; I would love it if the stuff worked. However, after being available for as long as it has with no independant studies supporting it, as well as the tepid feedback from this and other sites, makes me a little skeptical about the product.
 

Felk

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Lack of independent studies (and possibly the irritating ingredient which i hadn't heard of) is the only thing which bothers me.

Not using it with other topicals could be problematic, but if you wait 2 hours after applying other topicals and use it last thing before bed it should be fine. In any case, it's the fluridil which degrades, not your other topicals.

And the cost can be offset significantly if you only use 1ml each day (ie the same amount as minoxidil), and order a free box by doing the survey on the site. A 4 month supply then becomes a 10 month supply. It's this reason primarily, that I am going to add it.
 

CCS

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I wish i knew just how strong of an androgen blocker it is, and how long it stays in the follicles. If it is as strong as flutamide, and stays in there 24-7, I could drop all my other androgen treatments. I'd just take 0.1mg finasteride each day to protect my follicles during the few hours during and after a shower. The molecule looks a lot like flutamide. I still question the vehicle, since it evaporates so fast. I don't know how enough could be absorbed in a few minutes. The only explanation that makes sense is that the stuff is so potent that even the small amount that is absorbed can knock out all the receptors. As for the alcohol, i think the grapeseed oil should reduce the surfacting and drying and irritation substancially compared to pure alcohol.

So much research to do. I'm glad I'm on summer vacation or my grades would be suffering right now.
 

lordhair

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It must be pretty potent because people have had success with it by applying as directed once a day

Once it gets to the receptors it must shut them down for a decent amount of time (more than 24 hours) because it will be broken down pretty quickly in the aqueous environment of the scalp and hair follicles

I used it before for a while and seemed to stop my shedding and I also had some velous hair grow. I stopped it because of the cost but now I have gone back because I'm using 1 ml a day and also because I had side effects from topical spironolactone which was a cheaper option

I hope they produce a non-ampule version though. The boxes of the ampules are very bulky especially if you go travelling
 

CCS

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the problem is that pure isopropanol evaporates very fast. much faster than the 70% stuff at the store. water vapor in the air would not do much destruction to the stuff, but it might reduce the opened shelf life to less than a month. Unless you kept it sealed tight and only opened it in a room that is not too warm, and applied it fast enough to close it again in time, a decent amount would evaportate in a month. to bad the can't make a pump that dispense drops and locks everything in when you are not using it. The pump could have a cap on it. I'm looking forwards to getting mine, but am still researching flutamide.
 

lordhair

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They could use a different vehicle to isopropanol

Perhaps they could put it in a gel or a cream form which would be in screw tight container

Or in a pump dispenser but with a lot less isopropanol in the vehicle
 
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