feedback mechanisms with DHT inhibitors

[HARM1]

In my learning of biology we learned that the body uses feedback mechanism s to regulate all kinds of things, at the cell level, and in the hole body level(I think I just had a grammer problem just now). So i'd like to know, if feedback mechanisms regarding dht are known and have been checked by scientists.

- When the cells in our body gett less DHT do they make more receptors in all the cells that use dht, or only in the ones that are getting less. I mean even tough some cells will get less DHT with finasteride sebum glands will stiil get the same.

- Does the body make more 5ar ? if so where? evrewhere, or only where cells are getting less DHT ?

 

[docj077]

At the level of the anterior pituitary and the hypothalamus, DHT inhibits the excretion of GnRH, LH, and FSH. Reduced DHT levels with cause an increase in the production of GnRH, LH, FSH, and all downstream metabolites.

I'm pretty sure that's right, but I'm sure someone will correct me.

In the prostate, if the cells are removed from DHT, they do start to make more androgen receptors. That's about all I know about that.

 

[Bryan]

Sawaya's experiment claiming to find an "intense upregulation" of androgen receptors in hair follicle cells with finasteride usage has been widely discussed on all the hairloss sites, and has caused a considerable amount of angst among Propecia users. However, it should be noted here that Sawaya's is the ONLY such claim I've ever seen. Furthermore, a dermatologist associated with Merck indicated privately in an email that he's rather doubtful of that claim.

Bryan

 

[HARM1]

Sawaya's experiment claiming to find an "intense upregulation" of androgen receptors in hair follicle cells with finasteride usage has been widely discussed on all the hairloss sites, and has caused a considerable amount of angst among Propecia users. However, it should be noted here that Sawaya's is the ONLY such claim I've ever seen. Furthermore, a dermatologist associated with Merck indicated privately in an email that he's rather doubtful of that claim.

Bryan

In other words there are no certain answers to this questions ?
THx

 

[Bryan]

Right. We don't know for absolutely certain-sure, but I tend to give Sawaya the benefit of the doubt. HOWEVER (and this is a key point, in my opinion), I don't think it makes much difference, one way or the other. I was simply astonished that there was so much discussion and controversy over that "intense upregulation" of androgen receptors, when the news first broke. My attitude was (and remains): "Ho-hum...whatever".

Bryan

 

[HARM1]

Right. We don't know for absolutely certain-sure, but I tend to give Sawaya the benefit of the doubt. HOWEVER (and this is a key point, in my opinion), I don't think it makes much difference, one way or the other. I was simply astonished that there was so much discussion and controversy over that "intense upregulation" of androgen receptors, when the news first broke. My attitude was (and remains): "Ho-hum...whatever".

Bryan

Well the importance lays in the ramifications, like:
-You take 1 mg of finasteride, cells make more receptors and more dht, and in the end the cells get just as much finasteride as they use to before finasteride.

- Sto ptaking finasteride, do things go back to normal ? one would suppose so, but what really happens.

and I can think of meny more things

 

[Bryan]

Well the importance lays in the ramifications, like:
-You take 1 mg of finasteride, cells make more receptors and more dht, and in the end the cells get just as much finasteride as they use to before finasteride.

I'm going to assume that you MEANT to say "...in the end the cells get just as much _DHT_ as they use to before finasteride."

The cells won't make more DHT when you take finasteride. Finasteride sharply reduces the production of DHT, and it stays that way. The increase in androgen receptors is not important for that very reason, IMHO. On a scale of importance from 1 to 10, I'd give it probably a 1.

- Stop taking finasteride, do things go back to normal ?

Sure.

and I can think of meny more things

You worry too much!

Bryan

 

[HARM1]

Well the importance lays in the ramifications, like:
-You take 1 mg of finasteride, cells make more receptors and more dht, and in the end the cells get just as much finasteride as they use to before finasteride.

I'm going to assume that you MEANT to say "...in the end the cells get just as much _DHT_ as they use to before finasteride."

The cells won't make more DHT when you take finasteride. Finasteride sharply reduces the production of DHT, and it stays that way. The increase in androgen receptors is not important for that very reason, IMHO. On a scale of importance from 1 to 10, I'd give it probably a 1.

- Stop taking finasteride, do things go back to normal ?

Sure.

and I can think of meny more things

You worry too much!

Bryan

Well i admit I sound like a someone's mother, but this is our health we are dealing with.

"The cells won't make more DHT when you take finasteride." How do yo uknow this?

"The increase in androgen receptors is not important for that very reason, IMHO. " Well the body does not upgrade receptors just for the fun of it, when the body wants something, it usually gets it.Agree with me at least that more dht is being recepted when the body makes more receptors then when yoy start finasteride.

"

- Stop taking finasteride, do things go back to normal ?

Sure."
How do you know ?

THX alot

 

[Bryan]

"The cells won't make more DHT when you take finasteride." How do yo uknow this?

From the dozens (if not hundreds) of finasteride studies that have been published. DHT goes down, not up, when you take finasteride.

"The increase in androgen receptors is not important for that very reason, IMHO. " Well the body does not upgrade receptors just for the fun of it, when the body wants something, it usually gets it.

Not in this case.

Agree with me at least that more dht is being recepted when the body makes more receptors then when yoy start finasteride.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that having more androgen receptors along with normal amounts of DHT inside a cell makes it more likely that the DHT molecules will find a receptor to bind with? That sounds like a fairly safe bet...

"

- Stop taking finasteride, do things go back to normal ?

Sure."
How do you know ?

I don't know that Sawaya actually RE-TESTED those patients again after they stopped using finasteride to see if their levels of androgen receptors went back to normal, but it's a safe bet that they did.

Bryan

 

[HARM1]

"The cells won't make more DHT when you take finasteride." How do yo uknow this?

From the dozens (if not hundreds) of finasteride studies that have been published. DHT goes down, not up, when you take finasteride.

"The increase in androgen receptors is not important for that very reason, IMHO. " Well the body does not upgrade receptors just for the fun of it, when the body wants something, it usually gets it.

Not in this case.

Agree with me at least that more dht is being recepted when the body makes more receptors then when yoy start finasteride.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that having more androgen receptors along with normal amounts of DHT inside a cell makes it more likely that the DHT molecules will find a receptor to bind with? That sounds like a fairly safe bet...

"

- Stop taking finasteride, do things go back to normal ?

Sure."
How do you know ?

I don't know that Sawaya actually RE-TESTED those patients again after they stopped using finasteride to see if their levels of androgen receptors went back to normal, but it's a safe bet that they did.

Bryan

ok DHT levels go down, that still does not say that the body isn't making more DHT, and the question if it stops making more when you get off if is still not answered. So is the the question about getting receptors back no normal. Sure it's a high chance that things go back no normal, but isn't it something that should be known for a fact?



And what i meant was- X starts finasteride --> he's cells get less DHT--> cells now nake more receptors --->. At this point they may be getting less dht then they were befor finasteride, but with more receptors they are getting more then when X had just started finasteride. So the body does succeed to some degree at getting more DHT .

 

[Bryan]

ok DHT levels go down, that still does not say that the body isn't making more DHT...

You're speaking in riddles! How can DHT levels go down at the same that the body is making more??

And what i meant was- X starts finasteride --> he's cells get less DHT--> cells now nake more receptors --->. At this point they may be getting less dht then they were befor finasteride, but with more receptors they are getting more then when X had just started finasteride. So the body does succeed to some degree at getting more DHT .

Getting more DHT than WHAT?? If you're saying that the number of DHT molecules that manage to bind to androgen receptors after you start taking finasteride is a little higher than what it would be if the androgen receptors didn't get upregulated at all, then yeah, I agree with you. But it's not gonna be that big a deal. It might be a 90% reduction of DHT/AR unions WITHOUT the upregulation, and maybe only an 85% reduction WITH the upregulation (that's just a "guesstimate"). Don't worry about it. Either way, it's still a substantial reduction.

Bryan