Finasteride and Dutasteride raise SCALP Testosterone levels

Aplunk1

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Okay... having my previewed post deleted (due to my browser crashing), I will cut this a bit short...

I recently came across a number of threads, most of which are on http://www.hairlosshelp.com, where it's being discussed that finasteride and dutasteride raise scalp testosterone levels.

Although DHT is significantly lowered by taking these 5-AR inhibitors, scalp testosterone is greatly increased... In dutasteride, the scalp testosterone is over 100% (114%, I believe, at taking .5mg/day).

Testosterone is an androgen, and, although weaker than DHT, is still an androgen...

My questions to all of you are:

Will taking dutasteride result in faster recession, such as in the frontal area where hair is more androgen-sensitive?

Will adding a topical anti-androgen help reduce the greater levels of testosterone on my scalp, or do topical anti-androgens, such as spironolactone and flutamide, only work against DHT?

Thank you very much,
 

jeffsss

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Re: Finasteride and Dutasteride raise SCALP Testosterone lev

Aplunk1 said:
Okay... having my previewed post deleted (due to my browser crashing), I will cut this a bit short...

I recently came across a number of threads, most of which are on http://www.hairlosshelp.com, where it's being discussed that finasteride and dutasteride raise scalp testosterone levels.

Although DHT is significantly lowered by taking these 5-AR inhibitors, scalp testosterone is greatly increased... In dutasteride, the scalp testosterone is over 100% (114%, I believe, at taking .5mg/day).

Testosterone is an androgen, and, although weaker than DHT, is still an androgen...

My questions to all of you are:

Will taking dutasteride result in faster recession, such as in the frontal area where hair is more androgen-sensitive?

Will adding a topical anti-androgen help reduce the greater levels of testosterone on my scalp, or do topical anti-androgens, such as spironolactone and flutamide, only work against DHT?

Thank you very much,

I've oftne wondered that.
I know there are more than one reason (DHT) that people lose hair. therefore.. if your NOT losing your hair because of DHT then taking a DHT inhibitor would be bad.

Unfourtunatly the only way you can find out if dutasteride or finasteride can help you is by trial.

do you have a link to the topic you mentioned? I'm curious as to what they say.
 

Britannia

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Testosterone in its normal less-potent form, cannot bind with the DHT specific receptors found in hair follicles and therefore is incapable of having ANY effect on hair whatsoever.
 

triton2

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Britannia said:
Testosterone in its normal less-potent form, cannot bind with the DHT specific receptors

There's not such a thing as a 'DHT specific receptor'. There's only one type of AR (androgen receptor) and it can bind any androgen; what happens is that different androgens have different affinities for the AR, and not only that but also different androgens, aside from their binding affinity, activate different genes.
I guess what you really meant was that testosterone doesn't activate those genes related to male pattern baldness and ergo we shouldn't care about test levels going up in the scalp. However, we don't know for sure to what extent test might promote male pattern baldness. One thing is for sure: its ability to promote it is way way less than that of DHT.

and therefore is incapable of having ANY effect on hair whatsoever.

That depends on its ability to activate those genes related to male pattern baldness. I think all androgens have the ability to activate it, the difference is the degree to which they are able to do that (think about it as an anabolic/androgenic ratio). For instance: nandrolone is really mild when it comes to male pattern baldness, but take it in large doses (500-1000mg/weekly or so) and you'll experience more hairloss than you'd expect with your physiological test levels for sure.

Finally, having high scalp test levels as a result of dutasteride usage is completely normal. The test that would have been coverted into DHT thru the action of the 5AR enzyme now cannot do that and remains as test. Hairloss as a result of that effect? Never! On the contrary, if your hair grows back is because that test remains and test and doesn't convert to DHT.
 

Aplunk1

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Okay, this will be short also, given that my browser crashed again...

This is one of the many links provided on http://www.hairlosshelp.com, where users are suggesting that dutasteride may be causing increased frontal hairloss:
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=

triton2 said:
There's not such a thing as a 'DHT specific receptor'. There's only one type of AR (androgen receptor) and it can bind any androgen; what happens is that different androgens have different affinities for the AR, and not only that but also different androgens, aside from their binding affinity, activate different genes.
I guess what you really meant was that testosterone doesn't activate those genes related to male pattern baldness and ergo we shouldn't care about test levels going up in the scalp. However, we don't know for sure to what extent test might promote male pattern baldness. One thing is for sure: its ability to promote it is way way less than that of DHT.

Given that testosterone levels are greatly increased on dutasteride, would it be possible that such a high amount of testosterone bind to the androgen receptor and thus cause increased hairloss?

Would adding a topical anti-androgen have any effect on the increased levels of scalp testosterone?
 

biff

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My hair seems to have been falling out more since I've been on Propecia. You might be onto something.
 

triton2

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Aplunk1 said:
This is one of the many links provided on http://www.hairlosshelp.com, where users are suggesting that dutasteride may be causing increased frontal hairloss:
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=

Just anecdotal and subjective reports. There are also lots of reports that suggest just the opposite: that only dutasteride, and not finasteride, promotes frontal hair regrowth. I think that placebo effect and paranoia have much to do with both opinions.
Given that testosterone levels are greatly increased on dutasteride, would it be possible that such a high amount of testosterone bind to the androgen receptor and thus cause increased hairloss?

1) As I said, scalp testosterone almost certainly increases because, not being able to be converted to DHT, it remains as test. Given the fact that DHT is much more proficient at producing male pattern baldness than testosterone is, what would you prefer: having a quantity X of unconverted-to-DHT test or a quantity X of converted-to-DHT test? I think the answer is obvious.
To give a short answer to your question: no, it's not possible that that increased testosterone causes a higher level of hairloss than the DHT you'd have hadn't you taken your medication would have promoted.

2) Testosterone bind the AR and is almost certainly able to activate those genes related to male pattern baldness. To what degree? No one seems to know... But one thing is for sure: to a degree much lower than that of DHT.

To sum up: testosterone probably binds the AR and promotes baldness but, in this regard, is MUCH milder than DHT.

Would adding a topical anti-androgen have any effect on the increased levels of scalp testosterone?

Your question is not well formulated. What you really want to know is whether a topical antiandrogen would help. Yes, it would, for it would prevent testosterone from activating the AR to some degree.
If I were to answer your question LITERALLY, I'd say that if your antiandrogen is being successful it should INCREASE scalp test levels, for a certain % of T would be being displaced from the receptor. Nevermind about this though, I just wrote it out of curiosity. :)
 

Aplunk1

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Thank you triton2,
thank you for answering my question and putting it in clear and understanding terms.

As for your second portion of your post, you answered it exactly as I wanted it. Thank you very much for your time and input.

Do you have any recommendations for an anti-androgen, perhaps one for diffused thinning? spironolactone liquid? Flutamide?
 

triton2

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Topical antiandrogens work to some extent: fluridil has been shown to be moderately benefitial for hairloss in one study(1) and topical spironolactone has been shown to be an effective therapy for hirsutism (2), which might be extrapolated to male pattern baldness.
I'm not too fond of topical flutamide because I've read Dr. Proctor say many times that its benefitial effects, when applied topically, are not a result from flutamide working locally, but from flutamide being systemically absorbed and then working in the scalp (as well as in other parts of our body where we don't want it to work).
Most importantly, the mother of all topical antiandrogens is RU58841, which has been shown to promote (in macaques) the same benefitial effects of finasteride in half the time. If you go to http://www.hairsite4.com you'll be able to find lots of info about RU58841. If you could use it, it would DEFINETELY be the best topical antiandrogen therapy anyone could use.
If I were you and couldn't get RU, I would use topical spironolactone 5%, 1ml every 12 hours. You can use it either in cream or lotion, although it's often said that creams are more effective.

Many people just tries to find in topical antiandrogens an ALTERNATIVE to internal 5-alpha-reductase inhibitors. While this might be a nice aproach I think that our hair will think it's even nicer to use an internal 5AR blocker (finasteride or dutasteride) and, AT THE SAME TIME, using topical antiandrogen therapies in order to avoid AR binding from testosterone (against which finasteride/dutasteride cannot do anything) and any DHT which might be left. I think both therapies complement each other and I think that everyone who's really serious about fighting male pattern baldness should be using both approaches at the same time.




1: Fluridil, a rationally designed topical agent for androgenetic alopecia: first clinical experience.

Sovak M, Seligson AL, Kucerova R, Bienova M, Hajduch M, Bucek M.

Radiology Research, University of California, San Diego, California, USA. msovak@ucsd.edu

BACKGROUND: Fluridil, a novel topical antiandrogen, suppresses the human androgen receptor. While highly hydrophobic and hydrolytically degradable, it is systemically nonresorbable. In animals, fluridil demonstrated high local and general tolerance. OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the safety and efficacy of a topical anti- androgen, fluridil, in male androgenetic alopecia. METHODS: In 20 men, for 21 days, occlusive forearm patches with 2, 4, and 6% fluridil, isopropanol, and/or vaseline were applied. In 43 men with androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia), Norwood grade II-Va, 2% fluridil was evaluated in a double-blind, placebo-controlled study after 3 months clinically by phototrichograms, hematology, and blood chemistry including analysis for fluridil, and at 9 months by phototrichograms. RESULTS: Neither fluridil nor isopropanol showed sensitization/irritation potential, unlike vaseline. In all Androgenetic Alopecia subjects, baseline anagen/telogen counts were equal. After 3 months, the average anagen percentage did not change in placebo subjects, but increased in fluridil subjects from 76% to 85%, and at 9 months to 87%. In former placebo subjects, fluridil increased the anagen percentage after 6 months from 76% to 85%. Sexual functions, libido, hematology, and blood chemistry values were normal throughout, except that at 3 months, in the spring, serum testosterone increased within the normal range equally in placebo and fluridil groups. No fluridil or its decomposition product, BP-34, was detectable in the serum at 0, 3, or 90 days. CONCLUSION: Topical fluridil is nonirritating, nonsensitizing, nonresorbable, devoid of systemic activity, and anagen promoting after daily use in most Androgenetic Alopecia males.

2: Panminerva Med. 1990 Apr-Jun;32(2):49-55.
Oral and topical spironolactone therapies in skin androgenization.
Messina M, Manieri C, Musso MC, Pastorino R.
Dipartimento di Fisiopatologia Clinica, Universita di Torino, Italy.

The most important clinical studies using spironolactone as an antiandrogen drug either per os or topically are referred. Menstrual disturbances very often occur during SP treatments thus limiting its systemic use. As far as the topical use is concerned SP seems to be highly effective with absence of systemic effects. Local mild side effects were present in a small number of patients.
 

Aplunk1

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This is great, thank you!
I will start out ordering 2% spironolactone for the anterior and crown, and 5% for the hairline. I was going to order Fluradil, but I don't want any systemic absorbtion to occur, as I'm currently taking Avodart and the chances of gyno are very high!

Thanks again,
 

triton2

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Aplunk1 said:
This is great, thank you!
I will start out ordering 2% spironolactone for the anterior and crown, and 5% for the hairline. I was going to order Fluradil, but I don't want any systemic absorbtion to occur, as I'm currently taking Avodart and the chances of gyno are very high!

Thanks again,

Fluridil doesn't give systemic side effects, it's FLUTAMIDE that has that problem.
 

Aplunk1

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I'm sorry,
I meant flutamide-- They both sound alike. Anyway, I haven't come across a good website to buy fluradil, anyway, so I'll be looking into spironolactone first... Sorry for the typo.
 

Georgie

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Hi guys. I’m a female. I currently only just started taking avodart 0.5mg once per week (roughly 0.07mg daily) just to be on the safe side since It is so potent. I read studies that showed elevated test levels rather than elevated DHT levels in women with Androgenetic Alopecia were correlated with hairloss. So given than avodart increases test, I’m sort of shitting myself that things could get worse. I spoke to a guy about this who suggested taking oral spironolactone to prevent dht from attaching to the hair follicle, and since dht is a product of test I thought maybe I could eliminate the elevated test levels/conversion to dht by taking and androgen receptor blocker, but problem is I have already once used spironolactone orally and it makes me sick. I am now thinking topicals, since I would rather not take another oral drug, and am already on Diane-35 which has 2mg cyproterone acetate in it anyway. My question: which topical to use? Is sprio better than fluridil? Admittedly, I have ordered a “Zix” (zinc/b6/saw palmetto) topical pack after reading good things, but I want something that is sure to achieve some good results. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
 

Finjunkie

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The broscience is thick in this thread :). I'm not surprised, finasteride raised whole body testosterone in some studies and this is expected since it lowers conversion of testosterone to DHT.

I don't expect this to hurt hair because, well, finasteride has been known and expected to raise testosterone slightly since the beginning. I don't think this causes any harm to hair since it's pretty well established that DHT, not test, is what triggers male pattern baldness.
 

Georgie

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The broscience is thick in this thread :). I'm not surprised, finasteride raised whole body testosterone in some studies and this is expected since it lowers conversion of testosterone to DHT.

I don't expect this to hurt hair because, well, finasteride has been known and expected to raise testosterone slightly since the beginning. I don't think this causes any harm to hair since it's pretty well established that DHT, not test, is what triggers male pattern baldness.
It was found via blood studies in women thah it was the presence of elevated test rather than DHT that correlated with Androgenetic Alopecia hairloss. I can’t find the study now annoyingly, but extensive blood tests were conducted to find out why women with seemingly normal androgen and dht levels have Androgenetic Alopecia, and why they weren’t responding to treatments.
 

Chromedome1990

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Hi guys. I’m a female. I currently only just started taking avodart 0.5mg once per week (roughly 0.07mg daily) just to be on the safe side since It is so potent. I read studies that showed elevated test levels rather than elevated DHT levels in women with Androgenetic Alopecia were correlated with hairloss. So given than avodart increases test, I’m sort of shitting myself that things could get worse. I spoke to a guy about this who suggested taking oral spironolactone to prevent dht from attaching to the hair follicle, and since dht is a product of test I thought maybe I could eliminate the elevated test levels/conversion to dht by taking and androgen receptor blocker, but problem is I have already once used spironolactone orally and it makes me sick. I am now thinking topicals, since I would rather not take another oral drug, and am already on Diane-35 which has 2mg cyproterone acetate in it anyway. My question: which topical to use? Is sprio better than fluridil? Admittedly, I have ordered a “Zix” (zinc/b6/saw palmetto) topical pack after reading good things, but I want something that is sure to achieve some good results. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Jesus H... you're a necroposting machine.
 

EndlessPossibilities

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It was found via blood studies in women thah it was the presence of elevated test rather than DHT that correlated with Androgenetic Alopecia hairloss. I can’t find the study now annoyingly, but extensive blood tests were conducted to find out why women with seemingly normal androgen and dht levels have Androgenetic Alopecia, and why they weren’t responding to treatments.

isnt it obvious. The issue isnt test. Its the lack of test converting to aromatase. Aromatase dilates. It increasaes blood flow. Even women have faster wound healing than men.

the studies prove skin aromatase expression is the key! Aromatase was found to be 4 fold in non balding areas of peoples scalp even in men who are balding had higher aromatase expression in the scalp.


The answer is how do we upregulate aromatase expression in human skin. We do this and not only will reduce oily skin we will have faster healing skin and grow hair.
 
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