finasteride fitness decline

[concernedfellow]

hi everyone, this forum is terrific it is rare to see people communicate on the internet with such positive attitude to each other and to a common issue that we all have to deal with.

anyway, my introduction - i'm 25, but i first noticed my hair loss in february 09.

i've been using nizoral 2% for a few months, and finasteride for about 3 weeks. i've had concerns about finasteride (like many people do) so i am only taking 0.25mg per day. this has worked well for side effects:
- i've been trying to detect ball ache, and i get a tiny bit of it, but it is essentially unnoticeable
- no real change to most sexual things (semen, sex drive, erections when i want them etc)... i notice erections are not rock solid haha as often, still gets up no problems but its slightly less hard (when trying to notice a difference)

So I am into the finasteride for about 3.5 weeks and hoping these minor sides will disappear (or become unnoticable). I've started shedding markedly more hair since i started finasteride , i know people talk about that but isn't it after 3-4 months rather than 3-4 weeks? this doesn't really worry me.. yet. My main question is this...

QUESTION:
ive tried to look up answers on the forums but dont think my exact issue been discussed. the main thing that troubles me is is this - i feel like my 'baseline' fitness and muscle has declined rapidly during just the 3 weeks since i started on finasteride. i generally run casually (5km) but regularly (say 2x /week) for fitness. while i dont feel unwell or bad, its almost like in the past 3 weeks i've fast forwarded to a point where i haven't run for months? i work on a construction site and 3 weeks ago i could (safely) jog up 5 storeys of stairs no worries - now i walk up and get out of breath. i dont smoke, and i do eat well. also my legs have been getting a very slight muscle ache (same as after going for a run or whatever) but for no reason - ive put a hold on exercise to see whats going on.

its definitely something going on so im hoping this has been encountered before by forumers. has anyone else experienced this or can shed light on this? thanks very much

 

[Fanjeera]

People get a lot fatter and even develop boobs while on finasteride, so of course it also kills your muscles. Quit and you'll be lucky to return normal.

 

[southern guy]

Is this true do people really get fatter?ive been on it 3and a half months and havent seen any weight gain.Anybody out there put on weight on Propecia?

 

[Fanjeera]

Propecia has caused so many men to grow boobs. There are so many sufferers that I'm not even bothering to prove it with examples. Just read this forum: http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3

 

[cuebald]

:laugh: what an utter crock of shit.

Nobody has grown what can be called tits on Propecia, unless they were morbidly obese anyway.
Some people put on fatty tissue that is nowhere even near AAA sized. I personally am still as flat chested as I was when I was 13.

Propecia is way too weak for that - even people taking Oestrogens (transexuals) barely get above an A cup.

The drug can "feminize" - after all it does inhibit the male hormone DHT. It is so weak I don't think it will barely move the position of fat on the body (from stomach to hips etc).

Look at it this way - if your libido is intact, you still have the necessary testosterone, you won't suddenly grow boobs. If your libido has disappeared, it's time to get off the drug.

Fanjeera probably had a homosexual fantasy while he took Propecia and now is scared it has "feminized" him :laugh:

 

[Mew]

Nobody has grown what can be called tits on Propecia, unless they were morbidly obese anyway.

Photo:
http://www.ijtrichology.com/article.asp ... mot;type=2

"Propecia® is marketed internationally as a drug with almost no side effects, and physicians routinely avoid discussion of its uncommon potential side effects. Here, we report two cases that developed gynecomastia while treated with Propecia® and want to shed light on this side effect that seems more common and meaningful than previously reported. "

"Breast tenderness and enlargement are mentioned in the drug's leaflet, but gain no attention among practicing dermatologists who usually don't discuss this side effect with their patients.

Therefore, we believe that this side effect should be emphasized when administering this drug for the treatment of androgenetic alopecia. In addition, we share Ferrando et al.'s [10] opinion that this side effect is often overlooked, and that new studies are warranted in order to assess the real incidence of this side effect.[18] "


http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/335/11/823
"An example of increased rates of male breast cancer associated with increased estrogen-to-testosterone ratios can be seen in men with Klinefelter's syndrome, who are 50 times more likely to develop breast cancer than their normal counterparts (4). This ratio may be affected by finasteride (Proscar), which has been widely marketed and used to treat benign prostate hyperplasia (BPH). Proscar shrinks androgen-dependent prostate tissue by inhibiting steroid 5-reductase, an enzyme that converts testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). However, inhibition of DHT production alters the estrogen-to-androgen ratio and may also increase the risk of gynecomastia and male breast cancer. "

As this patient and his physician, we strongly recommend that the FDA require that information about the possible association between male breast cancer and Proscar be clearly stated in the manufacturer's patient information leaflet for prescriptions and in its advertisements. Proscar has been well established to improve quality of life in men suffering from BPH. Patients and their physicians need to be better informed about this potential life-threatening risk. Men who take Proscar need to be aware of any changes in their breasts and report these changes immediately to their physicians. "

Propecia is way too weak for that

This is just so wrong it's not even funny.

Finasteride is extremely potent, and can and will have an effect on the androgen/estrogen ratio. See attached screenshots, from http://books.google.com/books?id=v0QrC_ ... #PPA399,M1


More on effects on estrogen:

http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/cont ... l/96/4/338

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi- ... 1&SRETRY=0

.... "Decreasing 5AR by
90% results in DHT decreasing by 35 times,
testosterone increasing by 20 times, and
oestrogen increasing by 19 times. The same
changes are found in Gleason 4, 5 prostate
cancer.

Oestrogen plus testosterone increases
the oestrogen proliferation by a factor of 100.
Low 5AR results in unchecked prostatic
epithelial cell proliferation from increased
oestrogen without the apoptosis mediated by
DHT (i.e. carcinogenesis)"


http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/89/12/6359.pdf

"In this study, chronic inhibition of 5-reductase was associated not only with sexual dysfunction and gynecomastia, but also with a worrisome increased risk of high-grade prostate cancer. Keeping in mind a higher incidence of breast cancer reported by the other group (3), it seems reasonable to believe that long-term treatment with finasteride may disturb androgen-estrogen balance to the extent that may result in carcinogenesis.

Many epidemiological and experimental studies have shown that prostate hyperplasia and cancer develop more frequently in a hormonal milieu where estrogens predominate over androgens, as it happens in aging males. The inhibition of 5-reductase further shifts the hormonal imbalance associated with aging by decreasing 5-dihydrotestosterone and increasing testosterone, which in turn may be locally aromatized to estrogens. The aberrant up-regulation of aromatase expression in benign prostate hypertrophy and prostate cancer (4) makes this scenario even more probable. "

what an utter crock of sh*t.

Yes, thanks for confirming you were talking out of your *** with no research to backup your claims.

 

[Fanjeera]

And what about people who continue losing their good shape even after quitting the drug?

 

[Mew]

- Post-finasteride drop in androgen levels (ie, Testosterone)
- Elevated Estradiol, TSH, Prolactin post drug

 

[Fanjeera]

TSH is measured to indicate thyroid problems, right? Can these lead to fat gain too?

 

[Mew]

Yes, elevated TSH indicates hypothyroidism. Look up the symptoms.

 

[cuebald]

You've posted a few studies showing how much Finasteride changes DHT, T and Oestrogen levels in the blood. Everyone on this board already knows that Finasteride does that.

Morphine and the other opiates have been shown to lower T and raise E (but not to the same effect as finasteride, granted), as well as everybodies favourite, Alcohol. Many drugs do this, and they don't immediately give men breasts.

The pictures I have seen in your studies were all obese. Obese men can get gyno without taking any drug whatsoever - just from their natural Oestrogen production.
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/120858-overview ("Pathologic gynecomastia can be caused by a decrease in the production and/or action of testosterone, by an increase in the production and/or action of estrogen, or by drug use; however, gynecomastia can also be idiopathic")

I'm not saying that the finasteride is unrelated here, mind. More on that below.

I was over the top admittedly with my previous post, but I am trying to say that Finasteride is not some dangerous, toxic drug that will immediately give you a massive pair of DD's.

I am willing to say that if you're an obese man, you might want to give finasteride a miss, mostly because of the increased amounts of Oestrogen found in the obese male.
What's the bet all of the ED sufferers are also overweight?

As an anecdotal here, I have been on ~1.25mg of finasteride for over a year, with very mild side effects. I've had more sides off of my SSRI.

Oh, by the way, here's a link to an obscure website that has pasted in a study showing lowered Testosterone levels from using SSRI antidepressants. http://www.mhsanctuary.com/rx/testos.htm

Look at the first reference - Amsterdam J. et al (1997) Breast enlargement during chronic antidepressant therapy J Affective Disorders Nov.; 46(2);151-156.
Does everyone who takes an SSRI grow boobs?

I've also gotten onto Oral Spironolactone - took my first 100mg pill today as it so happens.
If you want, I can update you on how that goes.

I am saying that for the majority of healthy people (with a healthy BMI), finasteride is a very benign drug.

 

[barcafan]

Please do keep us in the know on your Spironolactone journey.