Flutamide once more
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harold
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I am experimenting with topical flut after dropping finasteride about 5-6 weeks ago.
Too early to say what the deal is as I have been using other topical AAs and in my experience from quitting finasteride last time it takes till about the 8 week mark before you discover if you r in full-scale shedding ie whatever u have replaced it with aint doing its job. Also at the moment I believe I am experiencing sides but again i am not sure if it is from the flutamide. Will need prob a week or 2 to figure that out and then at least another month or so to have any idea if it can be used effectively. I know what all the evidence says about systemic absorption.
At any rate i will get back to this site/forum when things are clearer.
hh
Too early to say what the deal is as I have been using other topical AAs and in my experience from quitting finasteride last time it takes till about the 8 week mark before you discover if you r in full-scale shedding ie whatever u have replaced it with aint doing its job. Also at the moment I believe I am experiencing sides but again i am not sure if it is from the flutamide. Will need prob a week or 2 to figure that out and then at least another month or so to have any idea if it can be used effectively. I know what all the evidence says about systemic absorption.
At any rate i will get back to this site/forum when things are clearer.
hh
topical flutamide is not an androgen receptor blocker. It first must be broken down in the blood to hydroxy flutamide before it does that. By then, it is spread to the whole body. Don't take it. But if you do, you might as well swallow some to save money. Only a small piece though, or you die.
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collegechemistrystudent said:
Pure flutamide is definitely an antiandrogen, but it's not nearly as potent as hydroxyflutamide.
It's likely that topical flutamide is converted to hydroxyflutamide by enzymes in the skin at least to _some_ extent, but I think the exact degree to which that happens is generally unknown.
Bryan said:
you posted a study where a range of doses of flutamide was applied to just one flank organ on a hampster. At all doses, low to high, both flank organs shrank an equal amount. So we can speculate about what small fraction is metabolised in the skin, but for practical perposes, guys using flutamide should save money and mess by swallowing a fraction of a pill instead of putting it on their skin.
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Bryan said:
I was half-way expecting somebody to challenge me on the claim above, but nobody did that!
After thinking about this issue some more, I'm going to go ahead and tip my hand and explain why I said that.In one of the very rare human studies with topical flutamide several years ago, the researchers did something very interesting: at the very beginning of the trial they applied BOTH flutamide and hydroxyflutamide (separately) to two different groups of test-subjects. They found a similar suppressive effect on the sebaceous glands of the male subjects with BOTH versions of the drug, suggesting (possibly) that the weaker flutamide was being converted to the much stronger hydroxyflutamide by enzymes in the skin, so it didn't really make any difference which version was actually applied topically.
Of course, another possible explanation for that phenomenon is that the flutamide was absorbed systemically into the bloodstream and then travelled to the liver where it was converted into hydroxflutamide, which was then responsible for the effect on the sebaceous glands at a later time. There's not enough information from the study to indicate which of those tentative explanations is the correct one, or if it's a combination of both.
harold said:
Just a poster on hairlosshelp, and experienced poster, who got a flutamide pill and took the whole thing. He colapsed, but recovered. 750mg is ofter prescribed to severe cancer patients. So you can eat more than a small piece, but it seems there is risk.
Bryan said:Bryan said:
I was half-way expecting somebody to challenge me on the claim above, but nobody did that!
In one of the very rare human studies with topical flutamide several years ago, the researchers did something very interesting: at the very beginning of the trial they applied BOTH flutamide and hydroxyflutamide (separately) to two different groups of test-subjects. They found a similar suppressive effect on the sebaceous glands of the male subjects with BOTH versions of the drug, suggesting (possibly) that the weaker flutamide was being converted to the much stronger hydroxyflutamide by enzymes in the skin, so it didn't really make any difference which version was actually applied topically.
Of course, another possible explanation for that phenomenon is that the flutamide was absorbed systemically into the bloodstream and then travelled to the liver where it was converted into hydroxflutamide, which was then responsible for the effect on the sebaceous glands at a later time. There's not enough information from the study to indicate which of those tentative explanations is the correct one, or if it's a combination of both.
I thought I did. If the rare study you just mentioned did not compare the effects of the application area to other area's of the body, then it does not contradict my point (or rather your old point).
harold
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collegechemistrystudent said:
I have personally taken 250mg per day orally for about 3 days and felt the usual sides at varying intensities and points in time. Definitely did not collapse. The "reflex hyperandrogenicity" upon quitting was quite an experience in the bedroom and is the reason the drug is not prescribed on its own for prostate cancer patients . 750 mg is the standard daily dose. Well documented liver problems are the main worry with this drug (reversible upon discontinuation) and being taken at that dose for that length of time were not a concern.
hh
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Yeah, that's the problem with that specific human study: it wasn't designed in such a way as to be able to make any determination at all about whether the antiandrogenic effect was "local" or systemic, so neither does it tell us much about whether or not the skin was converting the flutamide into hydroxyflutamide. I only mention that possibility in passing because the study authors discussed it a bit.
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harold said:
Not everyone here may be familiar with the famous experiment of my redoubtable friend "maneless", who took the FULL DOSE (750 mg/day) of flutamide, and claimed that every last bit of his hair was growing back, which is why the guy became so crazy nuts afterwards about the use of powerful antiandrogens!
Unfortunately, though, the flutamide made him EXTREMELY sick. He said he was so sick and so weak that he literally could barely get out of bed and crawl on his hands and knees to the bathroom. He recovered after he stopped taking the flutamide.
Bryan said:harold said:
Not everyone here may be familiar with the famous experiment of my redoubtable friend "maneless", who took the FULL DOSE (750 mg/day) of flutamide, and claimed that every last bit of his hair was growing back, which is why the guy became so crazy nuts afterwards about the use of powerful antiandrogens!
Unfortunately, though, the flutamide made him EXTREMELY sick. He said he was so sick and so weak that he literally could barely get out of bed and crawl on his hands and knees to the bathroom. He recovered after he stopped taking the flutamide.
That is the story I've been basing my claims on. I did not say everyone would die. But if he got extremely sick and could barely crawl, I think that means that at least some people should not be taking that drug at that dose.