For Bryan

[drinkrum]

Bryan -- this one's for you.

Please consult my earlier post (Systemic aromatase inhibitor might help with finasteride).

What is your knowledge of finasteride's effect on estrogen? I could not find any studies by Merck on Propecia's effect on serum estrogen levels. However, clearly loss of libido, etc., etc. can be due to a relative increase in estogen levels. I have heard that taking a systemic aromatase inhibitor would counter these effects -- resulting in a "18-year old" free test. to estr. ratio. Also, these meds supposedly have no major side effect.

And since -- theoretically -- increasing testosterone levels (as would happen with taking such inhibitors) would not affect balding (since DHT levels shouldn't really change and we're not increasing the quantity of 5-alpha enzymes that the extra test. can bind to). But this is still a big "if".

Your input (and of others) would be much appreciated.

D.

 

[Stabber]

The simple fact is that you're f*****g with Mother Nature. In this case, lowering a hormone that is known to keep estrogen levels at bay in men. There is no other way to see this. Look at all the hairloss forums and how many men have gyno problems. Theres actually a long thread about this on hairlosshelp open topic

 

[drinkrum]

True -- anyone that has ever taken any sort of medicine is f*****g with Mother Nature. And those of us on drugs that affect hormones (e.g. finasteride., etc.) are f*****g with her even more.

But that doesn't mean you shouldn't. You should be very careful. We're practically trying to rebalance ourselves by taking drugs that counter the effects of our genetics. This is very dangerous, so one should heed caution. I'm arming myself with knowledge regarding the aromatase inhibitors right now before taking any actions.

Stabber -- what is your strategy for battling hair loss?

Still looking for your advise Bryan.

D.

 

[le voleur]

Bryan -- this one's for you.

Please consult my earlier post (Systemic aromatase inhibitor might help with finasteride).

What is your knowledge of finasteride's effect on estrogen? I could not find any studies by Merck on Propecia's effect on serum estrogen levels. However, clearly loss of libido, etc., etc. can be due to a relative increase in estogen levels. I have heard that taking a systemic aromatase inhibitor would counter these effects -- resulting in a "18-year old" free test. to estr. ratio. Also, these meds supposedly have no major side effect.

And since -- theoretically -- increasing testosterone levels (as would happen with taking such inhibitors) would not affect balding (since DHT levels shouldn't really change and we're not increasing the quantity of 5-alpha enzymes that the extra test. can bind to). But this is still a big "if".

Your input (and of others) would be much appreciated.

D.

Increasing testosterone levels or decreasing estrogen is most certainly bad for hairloss. Etrogen increases the SHBG which is crucial in preventing androgens from binding to receptor sites. More free testosterone is just more that available to bind to receptors, something you don't want. You want more bound testosterone, not more free.

 

[Stingray]

Testosterone has nothing to do with hairloss.

 

[drinkrum]

le voleur,

Stingray is right -- testosterone is not directly linked to hairloss, DHT is.

On a theoretical basis, increasing testosterone has nothing to do with hairloss. By using finasteride, we're blocking the conversion of testosterone into DHT by inhibiting the 5-alpha enzyme. Even if we had a ton more testosterone, the amount of 5-alpha that is inhibited by the finasteride should remain the same. So the DHT levels would not change substantially.

I am not an uber-scientist, so don't run off bearing only what I say in mind. But, I would like to know what other people think. I don't know exactly how the enzymatic process works ...

D.

 

[Trilidon]

It makes sense.

When the body feels it has to much testosterone it converts it into DHT and estrogen, if were blocking it from turning into DHT, it will go to estrogen

To much estrogen increases sex hormone binding globulin( less free testosterone) , lowers the production of testosterone (this is why clomid and nolvadex help in some instances freeing up receptor sites)

If you took DHT inhibitor and arimidex it would probably cause your testosterone to spike a bit...but how long until your body lowers its own testosterone production because there is to much test?

I could see this working if you took smaller doses of propecia and arimidex , maybe even took clomid or nolvadex so your body keeps making lutenizing hormone( signals your body to make more Testosterone)

 

[Stabber]

Stabber -- what is your strategy for battling hair loss?



D.

The only one I know will work. A shaved head and a savings fund for hair cloning in case I wanna go that route in 5 years or more

 

[drinkrum]

Trilidon,

The people that I've heard that use both finasteride. and a good systemic aromatase inhib. say they use the reg. dose of finasteride. but very little of the other stuff. Something like 0.25 or something per day. The recommended dose I think for its "intended use" is 1 mg/day.

I don't know if the body does in fact produce less test. as a result. I've heard Arimidex is a very potent drug that continues to work. It also has little side effects (and some of them are because of the incr. in test. and thus affecting mostly women -- e.g. vaginal dryness, etc.).

D.

 

[le voleur]

Testosterone has nothing to do with hairloss.

No this is incorrect. Dr. Proctor has stated this many times. People withour hairloss have lower levels of free testosterone. They have higher rates of testosterone but more of it is bound by SHBG. It isn;t just testosterone that is converted to dht but also testosterone that binds to androgen receptor sites along with a person's sensitivity to androgens. Women have very little DHT but experience hairloss from testosterone and DHEA.

FACT: estrogen blockers cause hairloss.

 

[drinkrum]

I don't think test. binds to androgen receptor sites -- that is DHT. True, a side effect from estr. blockers is hair loss, but with finasteride. this shouldn't be a problem.

Bryan, still waiting for your word on all of this. If you don't respond soon, I will drive to your house and steal your finasteride. :moon:

D.

 

[Grantspots]

Bryan will give you his if he has any. It's probably very old by now.

-jg

 

[Trilidon]

Drinkrum,

As far as I know, the body is a system of checks and balances. If you have to much testosterone your body releases less Lutenizing hormone(LH) so it slows production. If your blocking the DHT and estrogen, your serum test lvls will probably go up, your body will have to regulate the rise in test. No way around this as far as I know, unless your taking something to force your body to produce LH.

Its like when you take a pro hormone or a steroid that ups your testosterone, it lowers your bodies natural production. Why folks have to cycle off of it( or at least should)

This has me thinking though, what are the chances of getting a side effect on propecia using half a pill( .5 grams)? maybe less, would it really be beneficial at all or would to much excess DHT be hitting the scalp? Arimidex or nolvadex taken with it could keep your body's serum and free test up enough to maybe offset sexual side effects.Could maybe throw in some clomid to keep your LH production up...

 

[Bryan]

If you took DHT inhibitor and arimidex it would probably cause your testosterone to spike a bit...but how long until your body lowers its own testosterone production because there is to much test?

Umm.....until NEVER, probably. I think you're missing an important point: tesosterone production will go up, all right, but that's not just because of the decreased metabolism of testosterone into DHT and estrogen. Another important reason is that both DHT and estrogen are players in the brain/gonadal negative feedback loop of testosterone production. If you reduce both of them by inhibiting their respective production enzymes, then in my opinion testosterone production (by way of increased LH) will go up and STAY up, as long as that condition remains.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

I don't think test. binds to androgen receptor sites -- that is DHT.

WHOA, NELLIE!! I _guarantee_ you that testosterone binds to androgen receptors!

BTW, regarding posts from earlier in this thread: I think the jury is still out on what role (if any) that testosterone itself has in hairloss, as opposed to DHT. I've presented arguments in the past (maybe not on here on HairLossTalk.com, but definitely on other hairloss sites) for why I think that testosterone _may_ contribute directly to hairloss.

Bryan, still waiting for your word on all of this. If you don't respond soon, I will drive to your house and steal your finasteride. :moon:

Bring your lunch, if you expect to find any finasteride in MY house! :lol:

Bryan

 

[Loopydude]

Testosterone vs. DHT

Testosterone and DHT do the same basic thing, in that they both bind to androgen receptors and affect gene expression.

DHT does this much more potently than testosterone. Because of this, there may be some differential in their respective functions. From what I understand, other potent androgens used by body-builders can cause hair loss. Taking finasteride can actually worsen the effect with some steroids, as they are modified by 5-alpha reductase and thus made less potent (unlike testosterone, where modification has the opposite result). Since other androgens can cause hair loss, I think one must arguably conclude that hair loss may be a function of androgen signaling in general, and not some specialized, hormone-specific form of androgen signaling. Hence, testosterone by itself can probably cause hair loss, though not as powerfully as DHT or other more-potent androgens can.