For "College": the effect of castration on hair-g

Bryan

Senior Member
Staff member
Reaction score
42
The following is something I posted on alt.baldspot in late 1999.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guys, I found another very interesting study today that has profound implications for all of us, even though it's nearly 40 years old. This study supports what Dr. P has been telling us about the limitations of antiandrogens. The title is: "Effect of Castration in Adolescent and Young Adult Males Upon Further Changes in the Proportions of Bare and Hairy Scalp". James B. Hamilton. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, Volume 20, October, 1960. I'll give you the full abstract, and then some selections from the body of the article:

"A study of 21 adolescent and young adult males, before castration and for eight to eighteen years afterwards, showed that after orchiectomy there was no development of male pattern baldness (male pattern baldness) nor of any grossly recognizable denudation of the scalp. There was no expansion of bald areas in existence at the time of castration. At the end of the study the eunuchs, compared with intact males of similar age, exhibited a significantly lower incidence of male pattern baldness (P=.01) and had no further loss of coarse hairs in the pattern that in most males results in recession of the frontal hairline (P<.01). After castration, no increase in the number of coarse hairs was detected in bald or sparsely-haired areas of the frontal hairline. It is concluded that the remedial value of drastic reduction in androgenic stimulation is probably nil with regard to return of coarse hairs which have been lost along the frontal hairline in young men. In 3 men with baldness of the crown of the head at the time of orchiectomy, a limited increase in the number of coarse hairs occurred after the operation in 1 but not in the others. Further study is required to ascertain the potential for partial regrowth of coarse hairs in subjects with late-appearing forms of male pattern baldness involving the dorsum of the head."

And some selected passages from the body of the article:

"It was first necessary to establish that androgenic stimulation had been markedly and permanently reduced after orchiectomy. Studies of 15 of the eunuchs, including data obtained eight to eighteen years after castration, showed that androgenic stimulation had not only been markedly decreased but had remained so.
"The area of denudation did not increase after castration in any subject, regardless of the presence or absence of bald areas at the time of orchiectomy.
"Even the usual frontal and frontoparietal recessions of the hair line failed to appear in the 3 males who had been castrated at 15 or 16 years of age when they still had Type 1 scalp hair. Failure of hair-line recession to develop in these 3 males during the succeeding 16 to 17 years is noteworthy, since 94% of intact males would have acquired bare areas on at least the anterior scalp.
"The 14 males with small frontoparietal recessions at the time of orchiectomy did not acquire bare areas on the crown of the head or further extensions of frontal...recessions of the hairline.
"In the 3 subjects who had acquired male pattern baldness before orchiectomy no new nor expanded bare areas developed after castration.
"Regions of the scalp which are in the process of becoming bald, or are adjacent to bald areas, tend in intact males to be most susceptible to spread of baldness. The present observations clearly indicate that after castration such regions are no more prone to...male pattern baldness than are other portions of the scalp."

But the kicker is the failure of castration to regrow much, if any, hair:

"The failure to regenerate coarse hairs was as definite in subjects with slight recession as in those with more pronounced recession...
"The lack of regrowth of coarse hairs in areas of frontal and frontoparietal recession of the hairline could not be attributed to a prolonged interval between sexual maturation and castration, since the lack of regrowth was as absolute in subjects castrated at the age of 16 to 20 years as in those not operated upon until the age of 30 to 38 years."

And remember that of the three with balding in the crown, only one showed a little regrowth after many, many years.

"The present data are relevant to a previous report of 2 eunuchs who were bald when first seen by the author several years after their testes had been removed. In the years since the published photographs were taken, there has been no grossly recognizable addition to the number of coarse hairs. The period of time since castration is now 29 and 37 years, respectively.
"These studies of eunuchs indicate that, even in the absence of testicular secretions and of any detectable increase in androgens from extratesticular sources, regrowth of coarse hairs on the frontal hairline is nil if the hairs have been lost when the subject was young. Therefore in males who lose coarse hairs along the frontal hairline when young, anti-androgenic treatment probably has little remedial value.
"In contrast to the poor prognosis when male pattern baldness has been established in young men, prophylactic therapy might be rewarding. It now seems certain that castration entirely prevents development or extension of male pattern baldness."

Bryan
 

CCS

Senior Member
Reaction score
27
So castration does not regrow any hair, but it does completely stop further balding.

How closely were they monitored form beginning to end? Did they count hairs, or just look at photo graphs, or did they interveiw the men?

It is interesting becasue propecia does regrow some hair for 2 years, before declining gradually again. I wonder if they had looked more closely, if they would have seen that early spike. Also, dutasteride 2.5mg/day regrows about 60% more hair than propecia. Yeah Bryan, I'm not saying it is 60% stronger, since compared to placebo it is probably only 30% stronger. But it does regrow 60% more hair on average.

So did they not look closely enough or is DHT the culprit and maybe testosterone needed a bit? Men on Dutasteride have testosterone by not DHT. Castrated mails have neither. Give testosterone to a castrated male, and he converts it to DHT and goes bald. The problem with balding men is their follicles produce twice as much DHT and have twice as many androgen receptors as non-balding men. So perhaps we want to inhibit most DHT (because of dutasteride's results, even though 50% sounds better) and inhibit 50% of androgen receptors (to make our follicles behave like normal ones).

Hampster flank organ shrinks 75% when the Hampster is castrated, yet human hair does not have a similar opposite response. Also, I wonder if DHT actually gives 30x the signal that testosterone gives, or if each androgen tells the receptor to do something different. While sebum glands are a good measure of whether androgen receptors are getting blocked, and a way of investigating DHT inhibition (type 1 at least), I'm not so sure their shrinking is always a good indication of hair growth. The shrinking of facial hair sounds like a better indicator, but even that is not too convincing to me, since dutasteride is not affecting my beard.

I suspect we still can manipulate androgens to grow a little hair, but loading up with RU will probably at best give castration effects on our scalp, so I'm thinking that once DHT is inhibited, maybe spironolactone is better for the scalp.


But this study does back up Dr Proctor pretty well. I read some posts by people saying they heard SODs can reverse fibrosis.
 

CCS

Senior Member
Reaction score
27
Does anyone besides me find it a bit odd that dutasteride 2.5 mg/day regrows 115 hairs per circular inch in 26 weeks, but castration does not regrow hair?

I'm going to look for that raw data study I found.
 

HARM1

Established Member
Reaction score
1
collegechemistrystudent said:
Does anyone besides me find it a bit odd that dutasteride 2.5 mg/day regrows 115 hairs per circular inch in 26 weeks, but castration does not regrow hair?

I'm going to look for that raw data study I found.
Well, give them some sods and minoxi and I bet there will be some growth
 

Old Baldy

Senior Member
Reaction score
1
collegechemistrystudent said:
Does anyone besides me find it a bit odd that dutasteride 2.5 mg/day regrows 115 hairs per circular inch in 26 weeks, but castration does not regrow hair?

I'm going to look for that raw data study I found.

I've ALWAYS found it troubling. Same for finasteride. Probably due to the small size of the castration study?

Plus, you hear statements from hair transplant doctors like Dr. Wong and Dr. Hasson stating dutasteride. is very good at maintaining and regrowing hair. :hairy:
 

CCS

Senior Member
Reaction score
27
i'm mostly bothered that the castration study did not have hair counts. it sounds like the doctor did some research to fine these people and asked them if they grew or lost hair. Or that is what I think until bryan posts the methods of hair count. i was impressed though that even the very low hair lines did not receed, though that was not very many people. I guess in 20 years you'd expect some recesssion. It said 94% of men loose that hair. maybe that is easier to notice than some regrowth up top. maybe it is stronger than dutasteride, but just not a miracle cure.
 

Old Baldy

Senior Member
Reaction score
1
collegechemistrystudent said:
i'm mostly bothered that the castration study did not have hair counts. it sounds like the doctor did some research to fine these people and asked them if they grew or lost hair. Or that is what I think until bryan posts the methods of hair count. i was impressed though that even the very low hair lines did not receed, though that was not very many people. I guess in 20 years you'd expect some recesssion. It said 94% of men loose that hair. maybe that is easier to notice than some regrowth up top. maybe it is stronger than dutasteride, but just not a miracle cure.

I hear you but Dr. Wong and Dr. Hasson say dutasteride. regrows a good amount of hair.

Then there was that guy in the Dr. Sawaya dutasteride. study who regrew hair at the same rate as that guy photographed on Dr. Proctor's site under Proxiphen results.

Once again, small populations?
 

CCS

Senior Member
Reaction score
27
yeah, probably. when we see studies, we usually just see averages. they advertise these good responders.
 

biglemoncoke

Established Member
Reaction score
0
and have these eunuches been injecting testorone or not? after castration, u can still acheive ejaculation and have sex normally as long as testorone is injected
 

Bryan

Senior Member
Staff member
Reaction score
42
collegechemistrystudent said:
So castration does not regrow any hair, but it does completely stop further balding.

Oh, I'm sure that it grows _some_ new hair, just like with finasteride and dutasteride, but it was difficult or impossible to document that precisely just by comparing their hair with the way it looked in old photographs. At least Hamilton did have one advantage, which is the very long time-periods involved (nearly 20 years after castration, in some cases).

collegechemistrystudent said:
How closely were they monitored form beginning to end? Did they count hairs, or just look at photo graphs, or did they interveiw the men?

They met the men afterwards (years later), and compared their hair to the way it was in old photographs. That's all.

collegechemistrystudent said:
It is interesting becasue propecia does regrow some hair for 2 years, before declining gradually again. I wonder if they had looked more closely, if they would have seen that early spike.

I'm sure they would have, if they'd had the same modern haircounting technology that we take for granted nowadays.

collegechemistrystudent said:
So did they not look closely enough or is DHT the culprit and maybe testosterone needed a bit? Men on Dutasteride have testosterone by not DHT. Castrated mails have neither.

Huh?? Castrated men have their DHT levels reduced by about the same amount as finasteride users.

collegechemistrystudent said:
Hampster flank organ shrinks 75% when the Hampster is castrated, yet human hair does not have a similar opposite response.

What exactly do you mean?

BTW, another interesting little factoid from Hamilton's study which I didn't include in my main post (although I've mentioned it on other occasions) is that one of the methods he used to verify their low levels of androgenic stimulation was to measure beard growth in the eunuchs, and compare it with normal, age-matched controls. If I recall correctly, the eunuchs had almost exactly 1/10 as much beard-growth (on average) as the control subjects.

collegechemistrystudent said:
Also, I wonder if DHT actually gives 30x the signal that testosterone gives, or if each androgen tells the receptor to do something different.

That's a very good question! :) I've seen hints and suggestions here and there that different androgens may stimulate somewhat different gene expressions.

collegechemistrystudent said:
While sebum glands are a good measure of whether androgen receptors are getting blocked, and a way of investigating DHT inhibition (type 1 at least), I'm not so sure their shrinking is always a good indication of hair growth.

In the case of a specific type-1 inhibitor like MK386, that would obviously be the case, knowing what we know now. But if you get that using a pure antiandrogen, then the results would be more compelling.

collegechemistrystudent said:
The shrinking of facial hair sounds like a better indicator, but even that is not too convincing to me, since dutasteride is not affecting my beard.

Then think of it this way: one could make an argument that castration is more effective as an "antiandrogenic" type of treatment than dutasteride, since Hamilton found that eunuchs had only 1/10 as much beard grwoth as aged-matched controls. However, there are a few missing details from that; most notably, exactly WHEN (at what age) were the eunuchs castrated. From other data given in that study, at least a few of them (several of them?) had to be well out of puberty when that occurred, supporting the idea that castration is indeed a very powerful "antiandrogenic" treatment.

Bryan
 

CCS

Senior Member
Reaction score
27
Bryan, do you believe that topical spironolactone turns skin testosterone into estrogen, and that that might give it an edge in some ways on RU?

Dr Lee said testosterone is also made in the skin, and that spironolactone's third effect is to stop that. Sounds like BS to me. What do you think?
 

Bryan

Senior Member
Staff member
Reaction score
42
biglemoncoke said:
and have these eunuches been injecting testorone or not?

No.
 

Bryan

Senior Member
Staff member
Reaction score
42
collegechemistrystudent said:
Bryan, do you believe that topical spironolactone turns skin testosterone into estrogen, and that that might give it an edge in some ways on RU?

Dr Lee said testosterone is also made in the skin, and that spironolactone's third effect is to stop that. Sounds like BS to me. What do you think?

For several years I pissed, moaned, and complained about that claim myself, because I wasn't able to find any documentation to support it. However, I did indeed find something recently that said that spironolactone does encourage the formation of estrogen. I don't know just how significant that effect is, or how it works exactly, but it does appear that Dr. Lee wasn't just talking out of his rectum this time! :D

Bryan
 

doggfather

Established Member
Reaction score
4
Bryan,

A couple of questions:

1) If finasteride reduces DHT levels similar to castration then why do some people who take finasteride continue to lose hair? Shouldn’t finasteride completely stop the progression of baldness like castration?

2) If finasteride reduces DHT levels similar to castration and if castration does not really regrow any significant amount of hair, then is there any purpose and benefit in adding topical spironolactone or any topical anti-androgen for that matter when one is already taking finasteride?
 

CCS

Senior Member
Reaction score
27
dogfather,

finasteride reduced DHT, not testosterone. Castration reduces both. Topical spironolactone blocks testosterone and DHT. Both androgens contribute to balding, it seams, though DHT is just the more potent one.

Also, castration reduces all DHT, whereas finasteride only reduces DHT produced by type 2 5-alpha-reductase. While this is the more important one, DHT leaking into the cell from the blood dose have a small effect on balding.

Finally, I think Bryan was exaggerating a bit. The testes make probably 95% of testosterone. While 5ar2 and 1 probably turn a higher percentage of this into DHT than normal, since they are not occupied as often, so That means DHT is not reduced 95%, but probably more like 85% or so (just a guess, based on the fact that reducing 5ar2 90% leads to 78% less DHT).

But even proscar (finasteride 5mg) reduces DHT by only 75--80%. So while it is possible Bryan is right that castration reduces DHT from type 2 5ar the same amount as propecia, I think it reduces is a bit more, as well as reduces the other DHT a lot more.
 
G

Guest

Guest
College,

what percentage each of testosterone and DHT does topical spironolactone block? Does it have to be applied in every balding area for it to be effective?

thanks
 

CCS

Senior Member
Reaction score
27
yes, it has to be applied to every balding area to be affective.

the exact percentage depends on how much makes it into the follicle and for how long. Once it is metabolised, i would think more testosterone or DHT would take its place on the androgen receptor, if it had not floated out of the cell by then. I don't know how long it binds to the AR, and how long it takes to get metabolised while in there. But at that low dose, it has a half life of 10 minutes once in the blood. I don't know if that applies to the cell as well, but that would explain why a cream delivering it over 4 hours works well and a liquid that evaporates fast does not work at all on women's facial hair.

since testosterone has a weaker affinity for the androgen receptor than DHT does, spironolactone should displace a larger percentage of testosterone than DHT. Again, the actual amount depends on how much spironolactone is there compared to how much DHT is there.
 

Bryan

Senior Member
Staff member
Reaction score
42
doggfather said:
1) If finasteride reduces DHT levels similar to castration then why do some people who take finasteride continue to lose hair? Shouldn’t finasteride completely stop the progression of baldness like castration?

Don't really know for sure, but one rather obvious possibility might be that other androgens besides DHT are also involved in balding. Castration also sharply reduces testosterone, whereas finasteride actually upregulates it a bit. It seems clear that castration has a greater TOTAL antiandrogenic effect than finasteride.

doggfather said:
2) If finasteride reduces DHT levels similar to castration and if castration does not really regrow any significant amount of hair, then is there any purpose and benefit in adding topical spironolactone or any topical anti-androgen for that matter when one is already taking finasteride?

Sure. Some people might need that extra antiandrogenic effect to help inhibit further hair loss, assuming they're one of those unlucky people for whom finasteride alone doesn't quite cut it.

Bryan
 

Bryan

Senior Member
Staff member
Reaction score
42
collegechemistrystudent said:
Finally, I think Bryan was exaggerating a bit. The testes make probably 95% of testosterone. While 5ar2 and 1 probably turn a higher percentage of this into DHT than normal, since they are not occupied as often, so That means DHT is not reduced 95%, but probably more like 85% or so (just a guess, based on the fact that reducing 5ar2 90% leads to 78% less DHT).

Uhhh....when I said earlier that castration reduces DHT about the same amount as finasteride, I meant exactly what I said. I have a study which measured DHT levels in male patients before-and-after castration, and it was reduced by an average of 70% (although there was a lot of variation from one subject to another).

collegechemistrystudent said:
But even proscar (finasteride 5mg) reduces DHT by only 75--80%. So while it is possible Bryan is right that castration reduces DHT from type 2 5ar the same amount as propecia, I think it reduces is a bit more, as well as reduces the other DHT a lot more.

I didn't say anything about how much castration reduces DHT from the type 2 enzyme. I have no idea about that. I just said that the total serum DHT reduction (from both enzymes, in other words) averaged 70% after castration.

Bryan
 
Top