Forty Five Pages of Concerns and Questions About Propecia

[Guest]

http://www.askdocweb.com/propecia6.html

Propecia Reviews
If you've used Propecia, please help others by adding your feedback. What would you tell someone considering using this product? Please remember that we do not give medical advice. That is for your local health care provider, who is familiar with your medical history.

Example:

Subj: Sexually bankrupt
Date: 7/29/2004
After a year of taking Propecia, I noticed that I am sexually bankrupt. I no longer dream of sex, but about clouds. If you want to keep your manhood, discontinue Proscar.
Jason

**********************************
Never mind bee pollen... I'd rather eat live f*****g hornets than take this potentially penis killing chemical.

 

[Pondle]

Erik, there's no doubt that some men do experience side effects from Propecia, while others see no (or limited) benefit for their hairloss. However, websites like these, with self-selected posters, aren't giving us a representative sample of users.

 

[Guest]

Erik, there's no doubt that some men do experience side effects from Propecia, while others see no (or limited) benefit for their hairloss. However, websites like these, with self-selected posters, aren't giving us a representative sample of users.

And who's going to provide that... Merck?

Yeah right... they're the same bastards that told millions of men that side effects were rare, and reversible upon cessation of use, and now there's evidence they're liars.

As if that would be a first for an American pharmaceutical company.

 

[Pondle]

Erik D, do you happen to be one of the Propeciahelp.com crowd? We've been through their criticisms a number of times on the forum. Some men claim 'permanent' sides, but there are no published studies or case histories providing objective evidence on such claims, and they are not given credence by the vast majority of doctors.

 

[Guest]

Erik D, do you happen to be one of the Propeciahelp.com crowd?

No.

We've been through their criticisms a number of times on the forum. Some men claim 'permanent' sides, but there are no published studies or case histories providing objective evidence on such claims, and they are not given credence by the vast majority of doctors.

Of course not... doctors make money prescribing pharmaceuticals, they get kickbacks from pharmaceutical companies, and they earn their degrees at pharmaceutical company subsidized medical schools, with some of their textbooks actually being written by pharmaceutical companies, and grant money being provided by those same companies, so you think they're really going to bite the hand that feeds?

I don't think so.

And another thing... there are millions, probably billions of observable phenomena that aren't documented and "proved" by peer-reviewed studies... and many things that have been "proven" by peer-reviewed studies that just aren't so, so relying on studies with a history of bias and manipulation as the final barometer of what is true and not true is imprudent.

 

[Pondle]

Of course not... doctors make money prescribing pharmaceuticals, they get kickbacks from pharmaceutical companies, and they earn their degrees at pharmaceutical company subsidized medical schools, with some of their textbooks actually being written by pharmaceutical companies, and grant money being provided by those same companies, so you think they're really going to bite the hand that feeds?

Doubtless there are improvements that could be made to regulatory regimes around the world, but I don't buy the conspiracy theories Erik. My girlfriend is a hospital pharmacist here in the UK. Although there have been notable and tragic failures by Government, the pharmaceutical industry, the medical profession and individuals in those various bodies, 99% of the time our NHS provides excellent, life-saving care.

And another thing... there are millions, probably billions of observable phenomena that aren't documented and "proved" by peer-reviewed studies... and many things that have been "proven" by peer-reviewed studies that just aren't so, so relying on studies with a history of bias and manipulation as the final barometer of what is true and not true is imprudent.

It's true that not all studies are of equal quality, and they should be appraised critically. We need to ask questions about the research question, size and duration of the study, randomisation, use of blinds, statistical significance of any between-group differences... however, here on the forum we often lack the information or expertise to be able to do that. Most people just link to abstracts on PubMed, I do it myself! That said, studies published in peer-reviewed journals are huge step up on internet anecdotes, which have no quality control whatsoever.

 

[Guest]

Doubtless there are improvements that could be made to regulatory regimes around the world, but I don't buy the conspiracy theories Erik. My girlfriend is a hospital pharmacist here in the UK. Although there have been notable and tragic failures by Government, the pharmaceutical industry, the medical profession and individuals in those various bodies, 99% of the time our NHS provides excellent, life-saving care.

I can't comment on the state of the pharmaceutical industry in the UK, but in the US, it has been pretty well documented that it is corrupt, with frequent collusion between the FDA and pharmaceutical companies.

It's true that not all studies are of equal quality, and they should be appraised critically. We need to ask questions about the research question, size and duration of the study, randomisation, use of blinds, statistical significance of any between-group differences... however, here on the forum we often lack the information or expertise to be able to do that. Most people just link to abstracts on PubMed, I do it myself! That said, studies published in peer-reviewed journals are huge step up on internet anecdotes, which have no quality control whatsoever.

There are millions of cures used by "primitive tribes" and in the forests of the rain forests, practically none of them have been scientifically studied by westerners, but they are known to work by the natives that live in those regions.

I mean, the birth control pill in America was derived from Wild Yams, which did the same thing. Did Wild Yams not work as birth control until some scientist ran a study and "proved" that it did? Truth is truth, regardless of whether some scientist is there to document it or not.

 

[DoctorHouse]

Erik, Life is a gamble and sometimes you lose. Taking medication for hair loss is a gamble too. Sometimes you lose and lose big and sometimes you win but I am willing to take the gamble and in return I get to keep my hair so far. You know marijuana is a drug and it has bad side effects for some people and yet people still smoke it to get high and feel good or for some it helps treat glaucoma. I take a tiny pill that helps keep my hair and makes me look young. To me that is a high and I feel good. unk: Would I love to stop taking it? Absolutely, but I feel if I don't I might start to lose hair and that bothers me. So far I have no serious side effects and I go to a doctor to safely monitor the drug interaction. If my life is in danger of taking this med, then I definitely will stop taking it.

 

[Guest]

Erik, Life is a gamble and sometimes you lose. Taking medication for hair loss is a gamble too. Sometimes you lose and lose big and sometimes you win but I am willing to take the gamble and in return I get to keep my hair so far.

But at what cost? You're putting your entire endocrine system at risk just for the vanity of a little hair. That's not rational.

You know marijuana is a drug and it has bad side effects for some people and yet people still smoke it to get high and feel good or for some it helps treat glaucoma.

Marijuana grown without chemicals is perfectly safe.

The problems comes from marijuana grown in chemicals, or with chemicals added later.

I take a tiny pill that helps keep my hair and makes me look young. To me that is a high and I feel good. unk: Would I love to stop taking it? Absolutely, but I feel if I don't I might start to lose hair and that bothers me. So far I have no serious side effects and I go to a doctor to safely monitor the drug interaction. If my life is in danger of taking this med, then I definitely will stop taking it.

But how do you know what it's really doing to the inside of your body?

I can't conceive of anything more dangerous than chemically modifying the endocrine (glandular) system of the body.

The endocrine system is all linked together, with the testes, adrenal, pancreas, pineal, pituatary, thyroid, and possibly other glands all communicating together with chemical messages.

If one gland malfunctions, or sends the wrong signals, you could be in for a lifetime of hurt... and at risk of very severe glandular based illness... some of them very ugly, painful and deadly.

There's no way I'm messing around with the glandular axes in my body... there's too much that can go wrong, the consequences are too severe, and there are too many other ways to fix the underlying conditions that lead to hair loss.

I'm sorry, but I'm not putting the health of my entire endocrine system at the mercy of a bunch of chemists at a pharmaceutical company. No way. All it takes is for one thing to go wrong, one message to get misrelayed enough, and you could end up with very serious problems. People are free to do what they want, but I'm not taking that chance.

BTW, here's the endocrine page from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocrine_system

 

[Pondle]

There are millions of cures used by "primitive tribes" and in the forests of the rain forests, practically none of them have been scientifically studied by westerners, but they are known to work by the natives that live in those regions.

I mean, the birth control pill in America was derived from Wild Yams, which did the same thing. Did Wild Yams not work as birth control until some scientist ran a study and "proved" that it did? Truth is truth, regardless of whether some scientist is there to document it or not.

But in the world of modern medicine, "evidence-based clinical practice" is supposed to be key, isn't it? Most of us expect our clinicians to use the best evidence available, in consultation with us, to decide the treatment option which will be the most safe and effective. That means we need hard-headed, documented appraisals of the compounds proposed for use.

 

[DoctorHouse]

Yes, I am putting my body at risk to keep my hair. I do not think anyone was inferring YOU had to do the same. Erik, you have to realize everyone on here knows the risks but yet they are willing to take the pill anyway. Everyone has different values and some of them seem trivial but everyone is entitled to live there life anyway they want. For you, taking Propecia is an irrational choice but to me its rational. Most drugs that give side effects do disappear after you stop taking them. So far my hormones are all normal and I get blood work to make sure all my endocrine system is working properly. I think if you are going to take a drug as least get blood work periodically to make sure things are not out to sync. I think I know my body well and if its not working properly, I have enough education to know how to rectify the problem if things are going haywire.

 

[Guest]

But in the world of modern medicine, "evidence-based clinical practice" is supposed to be key, isn't it?

Whose evidence? Pharmaceuticals companies that are looking to sell you a potentially dangerous chemical concoction with a list of side effects longer than the list of potential benefits?

And whose practice? Patent medicine pushing doctors who are essentially front men for pharmaceutical companies, and only began selling their chemical crap a hundred or so years ago, or the practice of herbalists with knowledge passed down for thousands and thousands of years?

Sorry, but I'll take the latter.

Most of us expect our clinicians to use the best evidence available, in consultation with us, to decide the treatment option which will be the most safe and effective. That means we need hard-headed, documented appraisals of the compounds proposed for use.

Most so-called "clinicians" (aka "doctors) don't know jack sh*t about the evidence for or against most of these "medications"... they rely primarily on the pharmaceutical industry reps for their continuing education, and that is a known fact.

Doctors don't have the time to be reading all the evidence and studies... they're too busy seeing patients and doing surgery. They rely on pharmaceutical dominated med school education and pharm reps to tell them everything.

 

[Guest]

Yes, I am putting my body at risk to keep my hair. I do not think anyone was inferring YOU had to do the same. Erik, you have to realize everyone on here knows the risks but yet they are willing to take the pill anyway. Everyone has different values and some of them seem trivial but everyone is entitled to live there life anyway they want. For you, taking Propecia is an irrational choice but to me its rational. Most drugs that give side effects do disappear after you stop taking them. So far my hormones are all normal and I get blood work to make sure all my endocrine system is working properly. I think if you are going to take a drug as least get blood work periodically to make sure things are not out to sync. I think I know my body well and if its not working properly, I have enough education to know how to rectify the problem if things are going haywire.

Good points Doctor, and I respect your decisions of course. You have the education to monitor and fix yourself, but most people do not. And Merck has left a lot of people high and dry.

At any rate, I have no problem with you... you're one of the good guys. I have a problem with a number of the assholes on this forum who mindlessly push "the big three" onto everybody else, and then insult, smear and defame anyone who disagrees.

You're not one of them, so may all good things flow to you in life. :coffee: :&: :heart: :sun: :fun:

As for the rest, may karma give them what they truly deserve.

Peace Doctor.

:listen:

 

[stax]

Eric i totally agree with you, ive used finasteride and dutasteride before, on and off numerous times.


But do you really think you can permanently mess up your endocrine system?


I mean ive heard of people having low testosterone after using finesteride, but with the proper post cycle therapy, and mabye some short term steroid use, like testosterone or something, wouldnt you be able to bounce your body back to normal again?


I certainly hope so. Ive seen guys do years of steroids and get shut down, and recover with proper PCT to get their balls working properly again.


Im hoping the human body is a lot more resilient than that, with the proper medical or supplemental protocol.



I agree that messing around with your hormones is a bad idea, some people do fine, others dont tolerate it. I just hope nothing is permanent, especially when you treat the problem and dont just leave it.

 

[Guest]

Eric i totally agree with you, ive used finasteride and dutasteride before, on and off numerous times.

But do you really think you can permanently mess up your endocrine system?

Yes I do.

I mean ive heard of people having low testosterone after using finesteride, but with the proper post cycle therapy, and mabye some short term steroid use, like testosterone or something, wouldnt you be able to bounce your body back to normal again?

I don't know, and neither does Merck.

That's the problem.

I certainly hope so. Ive seen guys do years of steroids and get shut down, and recover with proper PCT to get their balls working properly again.

What's PCT?

I can't even imagine the amount of stress that chemically shutting down and restarting organs puts on them.

I'd be amazed if it didn't procuce tons of cancer causing free radicals.

Im hoping the human body is a lot more resilient than that, with the proper medical or supplemental protocol.

Again, we'd probably have to study or consult some bodybuilders recovering from steroid abuse to see how they've fared, and from the ones I've seen and read about, they didn't look so good.

I agree that messing around with your hormones is a bad idea, some people do fine, others dont tolerate it. I just hope nothing is permanent, especially when you treat the problem and dont just leave it.

There you have it... Merck leaves people high and dry with this drug, and never attempts to address any of the problems it creates.... they leave that to doctors and patients to sort out.

That's irresponsible.

 

[docj077]

The body's response to propecia is individual in nature. It is not the drug that causes the side effects, but rather the way each of us metabolizes the hormones that finasteride affects. If you have a problem with side effects while on finasteride, then either decrease the dose, don't take it, or blame your own physiology for the response.

It isn't Merck's fault. Not even close.

I totally agree with doctorhouse regarding serial hormone screenings. I would probably also throw an annual thyroid check liver tests, and a PSA in there, as well. That's overkill, but that's what I would do for my body.