Giving it one last go. Want a permanent regimen. Tips?

[Dave721]

So I am a bit of a veteran. Not really a desperate type as I am happily married and don't care as much as I used to. I probably had hair problems starting at 15 and am now 39. I had stopped doing much of anything and just shaved it 5 years ago, but I feel like I may want to give it one more go at growing more. I've always been a fairly healthy person, but I now have gotten to the point where my scalp is just super naturally relaxed and have very low inflammation overall. I already have very good nutrition, so I am not looking for supplements. My goal is to get something that I could stick with for the long haul if the results are good. If they are not, I'll just drop it all and wait for hair cloning.

Here is what I am planning:
1. 5% Minoxidil once a day (I have some sides)
2. 2% Nizoral 2-3 times a week
3. Dermastamp 1x a week at .75 to 1mm

Now for what I want help with. I know there are a lot of smaller things that can help, but I am not sure what are the top "alternate" treatments. I have a shaved head, so it's super easy to apply anything, but I don't want a kitchen sink approach as I want to keep this up and I won't know what is actually. helping. So what is worth it?Things I am thinking of:
1. 5% Caffeine solution
2. Some sort of Zix solution?
3. Mixture of positively reviewed oils?


What are your thoughts? And yes, I know that I am not addressing the DHT. I know and don't care. I have kids and it's not worth the chance they get exposed to that crap as a topical, and the sides are not worth it.

 

[Renovation]

So I am a bit of a veteran. Not really a desperate type as I am happily married and don't care as much as I used to. I probably had hair problems starting at 15 and am now 39. I had stopped doing much of anything and just shaved it 5 years ago, but I feel like I may want to give it one more go at growing more. I've always been a fairly healthy person, but I now have gotten to the point where my scalp is just super naturally relaxed and have very low inflammation overall. I already have very good nutrition, so I am not looking for supplements. My goal is to get something that I could stick with for the long haul if the results are good. If they are not, I'll just drop it all and wait for hair cloning.

Here is what I am planning:
1. 5% Minoxidil once a day (I have some sides)
2. 2% Nizoral 2-3 times a week
3. Dermastamp 1x a week at .75 to 1mm

Now for what I want help with. I know there are a lot of smaller things that can help, but I am not sure what are the top "alternate" treatments. I have a shaved head, so it's super easy to apply anything, but I don't want a kitchen sink approach as I want to keep this up and I won't know what is actually. helping. So what is worth it?Things I am thinking of:
1. 5% Caffeine solution
2. Some sort of Zix solution?
3. Mixture of positively reviewed oils?


What are your thoughts? And yes, I know that I am not addressing the DHT. I know and don't care. I have kids and it's not worth the chance they get exposed to that crap as a topical, and the sides are not worth it.

Loosen all neck muscles at back, sides around the sternocleidomastoid muscle with massage (so that's massaging neck not scalp), and front around thyroid gland. Keep a good posture and ensure breathing is a steady pace deep and full with a good exhale, getting plenty of oxygen and getting rid of the CO2 is really important.

When you lie down to sleep, touch your scalp and ensure it's almost 'saggy' and not pulled tight, in theory this will keep the tight pressure off your scalp while you sleep (I'm assuming your scalp skin is pretty tight like almost all bald and thinning heads) it can be difficult at first, try lying on your back with a low pillow and have the pillow almost pushing the galea back up from behind if that makes sense, your scalp should feel looser and easier to move with your finger in this position.

All of this is free, even if you don't believe it will help with scalp tension and hair loss it will still improve your health by increasing oxygen intake, if you are ignoring the above.

Since your not treating to reduce DHT directly, at least avoid stuff that increases DHT.

 

[Dave721]

Loosen all neck muscles at back, sides around the sternocleidomastoid muscle with massage (so that's massaging neck not scalp), and front around thyroid gland. Keep a good posture and ensure breathing is a steady pace deep and full with a good exhale, getting plenty of oxygen and getting rid of the CO2 is really important.

When you lie down to sleep, touch your scalp and ensure it's almost 'saggy' and not pulled tight, in theory this will keep the tight pressure off your scalp while you sleep (I'm assuming your scalp skin is pretty tight like almost all bald and thinning heads) it can be difficult at first, try lying on your back with a low pillow and have the pillow almost pushing the galea back up from behind if that makes sense, your scalp should feel looser and easier to move with your finger in this position.

All of this is free, even if you don't believe it will help with scalp tension and hair loss it will still improve your health by increasing oxygen intake, if you are ignoring the above.

Since your not treating to reduce DHT directly, at least avoid stuff that increases DHT.

Thanks for the tips! Surprisingly, my scalp has actually gotten super loose. It used to be very tight as you describe. I would practice scalp exercises and messages, but I don't do that much now. I think it's either modifying my diet and supplements for low inflammation, or it's the fact that I end every shower all the way on the cold side. Regardless, I wonder if I would have lost so much hair if I had had it this loose to begin with.

 

[Renovation]

Thanks for the tips! Surprisingly, my scalp has actually gotten super loose. It used to be very tight as you describe. I would practice scalp exercises and messages, but I don't do that much now. I think it's either modifying my diet and supplements for low inflammation, or it's the fact that I end every shower all the way on the cold side. Regardless, I wonder if I would have lost so much hair if I had had it this loose to begin with.

That's interesting, I definitely notice my scalp is tighter after a long day at work if I'm sitting at a desk, or after doing a gym workout with weights. Then the opposite when I massage my neck, sort my shoulder posture and lie down in the position I mentioned earlier. Inflammation is definitely part of it.

I don't think it affects everyone the same and believe it links with the current thread on galea size, whereby you will get more prone to tight scalp from a larger galea AND the tight muscles which caused tension and reduce blood flow by restriction. (The other thread has gone way off topic but the initial post was very on topic).

I try to eat anti inflammatory foods but sometimes find it negates some of the benefits by missing out on key nutrients so been focusing on the physical aspects above.

If I sleep in the perfect position with the scalp skin in a really loose position for long enough my hair can sometimes feel as thick as straw when I wake up, whereas if I lie face down for a while it's really fine and limp. This can build up over several days and I've concluded that this must play a part over the very long term to slowly miniaturize hair.

Im assuming not, but have you noticed any progress at all since your scalp has been more loose?

 

[Dave721]

That's interesting, I definitely notice my scalp is tighter after a long day at work if I'm sitting at a desk, or after doing a gym workout with weights. Then the opposite when I massage my neck, sort my shoulder posture and lie down in the position I mentioned earlier. Inflammation is definitely part of it.

I don't think it affects everyone the same and believe it links with the current thread on galea size, whereby you will get more prone to tight scalp from a larger galea AND the tight muscles which caused tension and reduce blood flow by restriction. (The other thread has gone way off topic but the initial post was very on topic).

I try to eat anti inflammatory foods but sometimes find it negates some of the benefits by missing out on key nutrients so been focusing on the physical aspects above.

If I sleep in the perfect position with the scalp skin in a really loose position for long enough my hair can sometimes feel as thick as straw when I wake up, whereas if I lie face down for a while it's really fine and limp. This can build up over several days and I've concluded that this must play a part over the very long term to slowly miniaturize hair.

Im assuming not, but have you noticed any progress at all since your scalp has been more loose?

Honestly, I just haven't cared enough lately so I have had no progress. I've done just about 0 over the past year as I have it shaved. I plan on starting a rigid schedule here over the next day or two though, so I am hoping the complete lack of inflammation will help. I had a knee that was acting up for years, and its completely got better too. It's even in the middle of my soccer season and I've had no issues even without ibuprofen and, so I lean towards my supplements helping quite a bit. I am hoping to get good photos in the same light for about 3 months, so I can share if this does anything.

 

[Renovation]

Honestly, I just haven't cared enough lately so I have had no progress. I've done just about 0 over the past year as I have it shaved. I plan on starting a rigid schedule here over the next day or two though, so I am hoping the complete lack of inflammation will help. I had a knee that was acting up for years, and its completely got better too. It's even in the middle of my soccer season and I've had no issues even without ibuprofen and, so I lean towards my supplements helping quite a bit. I am hoping to get good photos in the same light for about 3 months, so I can share if this does anything.

It will be interesting to see how things go, especially if you can keep the scalp laxity feeling very loose.

 

[Jakejr]

This scalp tension.. IMO is from general calcification in the body.. & particularly in the scalp skin.. This is what is blocking blood flow/tightening scalp…
I am testing a few products
Apple Cider Vinegar
Sodium Thiosulfate
to attempt to break up calcification & increase blood flow..

 

[real kombo]

Without an anti androgen you are wasting your time. Period. And money. Hair regrowth without tackling the root cause will not work long term.


Despite what some may say finasteride is an incredibly safe drug and monotherapy of that alone will be both more effective and in all likelihood cheaper than anything else. Obviously minxoidil would be good with it.

 

[real kombo]

Thanks for the tips! Surprisingly, my scalp has actually gotten super loose. It used to be very tight as you describe. I would practice scalp exercises and messages, but I don't do that much now. I think it's either modifying my diet and supplements for low inflammation, or it's the fact that I end every shower all the way on the cold side. Regardless, I wonder if I would have lost so much hair if I had had it this loose to begin with.

You shouldn't worry about finasteride, which is incredibly safe, impacting your potential children, you should be worried about passing on such a low IQ and lack of common sense.

 

[real kombo]

You shouldn't worry about finasteride, which is incredibly safe, impacting your potential children, you should be worried about passing on such a low IQ and lack of common sense.

Oh wow, you already have kids and you aren't competent to prevent them from accessing the medication?? Is this a clown house?

If you're afraid of taking an anti androgen just say so. Plenty of people are. Don't blame your kids....

 

[Jakejr]

So does DHT cause calcification?
You know the thing we males have in abundance?

Yes, dihydrotestosterone (DHT) can cause calcification in a number of ways, including:

• Arterial calcification
  A 2009 study published in Endocrinology found that DHT can increase calcification in advanced atherosclerotic lesions in the arterial tree of mice. DHT treatment increased calcification in the innominate artery of both male and female mice by 2.4-fold, but did not significantly change calcification in the aortic sinus.
• Vascular smooth muscle cell calcification
  In vitro studies have shown that DHT treatment can increase phosphate (Pi)-induced calcification in mouse vascular smooth muscle cells (VSMCs) after nine days.
• Androgenic alopecia
  DHT is a co-mediator of calcification, along with tissue dermal sheath thickening and perifollicular fibrosis, which are chronic conditions that occur alongside the progression of androgenic alopecia. These conditions remodel tissues that are prone to androgenic alopecia, which can restrict the supply of oxygen, nutrients, and space for follicle growth. This can lead to the slow but persistent hair follicle miniaturization that is characteristic of androgenic alopecia.

 

[Renovation]

So does DHT cause calcification?
You know the thing we males have in abundance?

Yes, dihydrotestosterone (DHT) can cause calcification in a number of ways, including:

• Arterial calcification
  A 2009 study published in Endocrinology found that DHT can increase calcification in advanced atherosclerotic lesions in the arterial tree of mice. DHT treatment increased calcification in the innominate artery of both male and female mice by 2.4-fold, but did not significantly change calcification in the aortic sinus.
• Vascular smooth muscle cell calcification
  In vitro studies have shown that DHT treatment can increase phosphate (Pi)-induced calcification in mouse vascular smooth muscle cells (VSMCs) after nine days.
• Androgenic alopecia
  DHT is a co-mediator of calcification, along with tissue dermal sheath thickening and perifollicular fibrosis, which are chronic conditions that occur alongside the progression of androgenic alopecia. These conditions remodel tissues that are prone to androgenic alopecia, which can restrict the supply of oxygen, nutrients, and space for follicle growth. This can lead to the slow but persistent hair follicle miniaturization that is characteristic of androgenic alopecia.

I wouldn't dispute your references, however the opposite is also proven - Chronic inflammation is proved to cause an increase in DHT. Androgen activity can be a response to inflammation, and that tension-mediated inflammation may increase DHT, AR, and TGF-β1 in Androgenetic Alopecia by inducing ROS and other pro-inflammatory biomarkers.

So either DHT comes first - increased local DHT which causes inflammation.

OR

Inflammation comes first - inflammation (hence calcification, reduced blood flow and fibrosis) causes increased local DHT.

For the DHT comes first arguement we assume everyone reacts (very) differently genetically in regards to male pattern baldness with high DHT, and why some bodybuilders are bald and some have amazing hair. Both have high DHT.

For the inflammation comes first arguement we don't need to assume anything genetically it all makes perfect sense and I see it in people's appearance every day. The bald bodybuilders simply have scalp tension due to inflammation through all the things that causes this localised scalp inflammation (very tight neck muscles in particular the sternocleidomastoid, posture imbalance, chronicle tight temporalis, enlarged galea...)

Regardless though, utilising both anti DHT supplementation and reducing scalp inflammation wont hurt in any case.

 

[Jakejr]

I hear the inflammation argument & scalp tension one…But I think they are symptoms . If you go to a doctor and ask do I have scalp tension? Do I have scalp inflammation? They will look at you sideways..Do I have skull bone expansion? If you persist they will say you are “normal” Now if you ask them do I have calcification of the scalp? They will take that question more seriously, but by pure observation they will answer. “Normal again.. can’t see any calcium deposits”
But we both know something isn’t right..
Therefore male pattern baldness proliferates because testing of the patient the way we think is appropriate isn’t done.. So we have to speculate, postulate. I personally have tried the massage techniques.. The inflammation argument is tossed around, but if your skin is inflamed & it looks normal to a doctor… How is it treated .. if he can’t detect anything?
But Calcification at least we can attempt to treat or at least that’s my latest inquiry..

 

[Renovation]

I hear the inflammation argument & scalp tension one…But I think they are symptoms . If you go to a doctor and ask do I have scalp tension? Do I have scalp inflammation? They will look at you sideways..Do I have skull bone expansion? If you persist they will say you are “normal” Now if you ask them do I have calcification of the scalp? They will take that question more seriously, but by pure observation they will answer. “Normal again.. can’t see any calcium deposits”
But we both know something isn’t right..
Therefore male pattern baldness proliferates because testing of the patient the way we think is appropriate isn’t done.. So we have to speculate, postulate. I personally have tried the massage techniques.. The inflammation argument is tossed around, but if your skin is inflamed & it looks normal to a doctor… How is it treated .. if he can’t detect anything?
But Calcification at least we can attempt to treat or at least that’s my latest inquiry..

I get what your saying and physically addressing the calcification is something I've tried. Mainly I tried ACV rinses and magnesium (epsom) salts in bath water to soak scalp in. Maybe did something and occasionally still use these.

My main focus is on the surrounding neck and side head muscles which I believe over a very long period tighten the galea and trigger the deep inflammation. Fixing this is very long winded as it's a deep rooted issue.

I would not expect 99 percent of doctors to have any clue whatsoever on this, I've got huge respect for drs but they have a million and one other things to deal with and study and this probably won't ever be one. I've had disk issues in my neck in the past, and seen over 10 doctors, again didn't expect them to fix me just refer. It was only after seeing 5 or 6 physio/chiropractors who specialized in sport injury's and trial and error on my behalf that I eventually got it sorted by means not even touched on by the drs. Unfortunately I doubt there is anyone who specializes in scalp tension, so taking bits of info from various sources.

Also regards to inflammation, my scalp skin doesn't appear inflamed in the slightest. It's a term I use to describe the muscle tension on front and back neck and sides of head, causing the tight galea/raisedDHT/calcification/fibrosis.

My massages only focus on these muscles, never of the top of galea itself as imo that's counter productive and you can't massage away the calcification, it would likely only make the follicles weaker.

 

[Jakejr]

I think your extensive study/experience would be beneficial to us — not only for hair growth but increased blood flow to neck, skull, & hopefully scalp.
What is your massage routine..I’ve tried a few exercises/massages. I have a longish thin neck compared to persons with thick shorter necks.. I think that could be part of my problem..
Also calcification may block topicals like minoxidil/Duasteide/etc from being effective despite the studies..I’ve used so many topicals.. but puzzling the poor results.. Or it could be the scalp tension as you say.. They’re definitely all related.

 

[justinbieberscombover]

Stop this scalp massage nonsense

Even 100 years of head massages wouldn't have given me what 3 hair transplants did

 

[Renovation]

Stop this scalp massage nonsense

Even 100 years of head massages wouldn't have given me what 3 hair transplants did

Learn to read and stop repeatedly spamming actual conversation, I've not said I do scalp massages, in fact I said doing them would make hair loss worse ffs

 

[Renovation]

I think your extensive study/experience would be beneficial to us — not only for hair growth but increased blood flow to neck, skull, & hopefully scalp.
What is your massage routine..I’ve tried a few exercises/massages. I have a longish thin neck compared to persons with thick shorter necks.. I think that could be part of my problem..
Also calcification may block topicals like minoxidil/Duasteide/etc from being effective despite the studies..I’ve used so many topicals.. but puzzling the poor results.. Or it could be the scalp tension as you say.. They’re definitely all related.

No real routine, it's trial and error to try and eventually loosen up the sternocleidomastoid (main tight muscle which in theory adds to scalp tension, and also holds the main artery which supplies the face and galea) all the way from above chest to just under ear with massages and stretching. It's not an overnight fix.

Meanwhile physically reducing scalp tension in real time with the method on my first reply literally adds instant volume to my hair, but needs to be done for a much longer period to have any permanent benefits.

It's still all theory but one I have high faith in, if I was on finasteride or minoxidil/rolling I would imagine things would improve quicker.

It takes years for the body to miniaturize hair follicles and any natural remedy would take years to show the opposite effect. Happy for now with no shedding, thicker volume/texture and clearer complexion which is evident due to increased blood supply and probably due to better posture hence more oxygen in blood.

 

[justinbieberscombover]

Learn to read and stop repeatedly spamming actual conversation, I've not said I do scalp massages, in fact I said doing them would make hair loss worse ffs

"Repeatedly spamming"? Sir I made one post in the whole thread lol.

You are the one repeatedly spamming this thread with weird theories.

 

[Renovation]

"Repeatedly spamming"? Sir I made one post in the whole thread lol.

You are the one repeatedly spamming this thread with weird theories.

We're having a conversation on reducing inflammation around the surrounding neck muscles to potentially decrease stress on the scalp and increase blood supply. Your one post would suggest to anyone reading the thread for the first time that we were discussion scalp massage which are not and even advised against. It also moves the discussion off topic which is something I've seen you do before. Classic spam