Have you heard about affirmative consent on college campuses?

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Worth googling. This has been the law in Canada for a while, but recently forced on US college campuses. Briton may have something similar too. Some states us similar language for the general population.

The Obama administration has pressured colleges to adopt the "yes means yes" standard, to replace "no means no". Rules are written gender neutral, but 99% of those expelled for sex misconduct have been male.

No more improvising or silent sex. They want numerous questions throughout followed by her giving an answer each time. If he does something without asking, he is guilty of sexual assault.

Proponents think that rapists might not rape if only the law said he must ask for permission first. Under no means no, they ignored "no", (or in some states admits to hearing "no" but was protected by the fact she did not fight back). Proponents also think that rapists won't lie in court that they did ask, or that it would be easier to catch them if they do.

Many state laws also have the word consent now, but don't define what it means.

An analogy used by feminists is that if you borrow your neighbor's lawn mower, you ask first. Therefore, the same should apply to sex. The difference I see is that if your neighbor is right there in front of you, and you mow your neighbors law while he has a beer, he likely won't call you a thief. Also, if you use the lawn mower, do you call your neighbor at every turn asking for permission again? Unlike with the neighbor, the woman is right there with you.


Do you think this is a good change?
 

I.D WALKER

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If I loan my riding mower to my good neighbor, I certainly don't expect to find him/her in my garage next week trying to hot-wire it to start.

As we know some people are more trusting than others , then there are those whom can only trustworthy

depending on which side of the bed they woke up on. So therefore I believe bridges are generally more

durable and longer standing only when diplomatic perimeters are established beforehand.

Sexual cues can be misleading therefore clear communication is key before CONSENSUAL coitus ensues.

If/when intimate bonds grow stronger as they often and begin to evolve into more friendlier terms,

these unique and subtle signals may become more tacit. With that said I can't underscore enough the importance of consistently observing a transparent and

moreover respectful dialogue.

If I misconstrued the crux of your post I send you my apologies in advance. -)
 

Norwood One

Experienced Member
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Sex isn't that logical. It's based on animal desire. Government is over reaching like crazy.

Look at this stupid video. Who asks for consent every 5 minutes? Good luck being with a girl in bed and asking every damn time if it's okay to do something. It'll dry her up faster than a pond in the Sahara desert. Emasculating AF. Talk about killing the mood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVHYvUpeqKI&list=UU8h-zImKfDO1ssJ7ocOuFMw&index=183
 
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I think asking the first few times having sex is a good idea. But once people are used to each other, does it make sense to at each stage every single time? Don't friends show friendship by stopping with the formalities at some point?



What about dancing? Do you just ask for dance, and then guild with body movement from there on? Or do you ask her for permission to spin her and place your hand on her shoulder and walk her this way and that?

The requirement to always ask means that if a guy ever does not ask, because he assumes after the 100th time that he has her permission, he is guilty of sexual assault. And there is no statute of limitations. They take it seriously as the new definition.

Some may argue about whether we should draw the line at asking, at hearing no, or at fighting back. I say we don't need one line. Have multiple lines, each with different penalties. I think asking should apply mostly to early dating, and just be a fine if broken.

What do you think?
 

Norwood One

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The worst part about this whole thing is it undermines and makes light of actual rape. Quite a nasty unintended consequence.
 
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I got supporters (all female) to admit they don't use affirmative consent in their relationships.
I asked, "so you could charge your boyfriend with rape, and he'd get expelled if he truthfully answered he did not ask every time. That law is OK?"
They replied, "Why would I accuse him of rape for no reason? Women are not out trying to find guys to accuse."
I replied, "99% won't, but the 1% can if they are upset later. He must either ask all the time because he does not trust her not to accuse him, or he must accept the fact she can."
They replied, "You are crazy. You need help."
 
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http://time.com/3222176/campus-rape-the-problem-with-yes-means-yes/


Campus Rape: The Problem With ‘Yes Means Yes’


Cathy Young


New students at San Diego State University watch a video on sexual consent during an orientation meeting.
Having the government dictate how people should behave in sexual encounters is a terrible idea


The campus crusade against rape has achieved a major victory in California with the passage of a so-called “Yes means yes” law. Unanimously approved by the state Senate yesterday after a 52-16 vote in the assembly on Monday, SB967 requires colleges and universities to evaluate disciplinary charges of sexual assault under an “affirmative consent” standard as a condition of qualifying for state funds. The bill’s supporters praise it as an important step in preventing sexual violence on campus. In fact, it is very unlikely to deter predators or protect victims. Instead, its effect will be to codify vague and capricious rules governing student conduct, to shift the burden of proof to (usually male) students accused of sexual offenses, and to create a disturbing precedent for government regulation of consensual sex.


No sane person would quarrel with the principle that sex without consent is rape and should be severely punished. But while sexual consent is widely defined as the absence of a “no” (except in cases of incapacitation), anti-rape activists and many feminists have long argued that this definition needs to shift toward an active “yes.” Or, as the California bill puts it:


“Affirmative consent” means affirmative, conscious, and voluntary agreement to engage in sexual activity. … Lack of protest or resistance does not mean consent, nor does silence mean consent.
The law’s defenders, such as feminist writer Amanda Hess, dismiss as hyperbole claims that it would turn people into unwitting rapists every time they have sex without obtaining an explicit “yes” (or, better yet, a notarized signature) from their partner. Hess points out that consent can include nonverbal cues such as body language. Indeed, the warning that “relying solely on nonverbal communication can lead to misunderstanding,” included in the initial draft of the bill, was dropped from later versions. Yet even after those revisions, one of the bill’s co-authors, Democratic Assemblywoman Bonnie Lowenthal, told the San Gabriel Valley Tribune that the affirmative consent standard means a person “must say ‘yes.’ ”


Nonverbal cues indicating consent are almost certainly present in most consensual sexual encounters. But as a legal standard, nonverbal affirmative consent leaves campus tribunals in the position of trying to answer murky and confusing questions — for instance, whether a passionate response to a kiss was just a kiss, or an expression of “voluntary agreement” to have sexual intercourse. Faced with such ambiguities, administrators are likely to err on the side of caution and treat only explicit verbal agreement as sufficient proof of consent. In fact, many affirmative-consent-based student codes of sexual conduct today either discourage reliance on nonverbal communication as leaving too much room for mistakes (among them California’s Occidental College and North Carolina’s Duke University) or explicitly require asking for and obtaining verbal consent (the University of Houston). At Pennsylvania’s Swarthmore College, nonverbal communication is allowed but a verbal request for consent absolutely requires a verbal response: If you ask, “Do you want this?”, you may not infer consent from the mere fact that your partner pulls you down on the bed and moves to take off your clothes.


Meanwhile, workshops and other activities promoting the idea that one must “ask first and ask often” and that sex without verbal agreement is rape have proliferated on college campuses.


The consent evangelists often admit that discussing consent is widely seen as awkward and likely to kill the mood — though they seem to assume that the problem can be resolved if you just keep repeating that such verbal exchanges can be “hot,” “cool,” and “creative.” It’s not that talk during a sexual encounter is inherently a turn-off — far from it. But there’s a big difference between sexy banter or endearments, and mandatory checks to confirm you aren’t assaulting your partner (especially when you’re told that such checks must be conducted “in an ongoing manner”). Most people prefer spontaneous give-and-take and even some mystery, however old-fashioned that may sound; sex therapists will also tell you that good sex requires “letting go” of self-consciousness. When ThinkProgress.com columnist Tara Culp-Ressler writes approvingly that under affirmative consent “both partners are required to pay more attention to whether they’re feeling enthusiastic about the sexual experience they’re having,” it sounds more like a prescription for overthinking.


Of course anyone who believes that verbal communication about consent is essential to healthy sexual relationships can preach that message to others. The problem is that advocates of affirmative consent don’t rely simply on persuasion but on guilt-tripping (one handout stresses that verbal communication is “worth the risk of embarrassment or awkwardness” since the alternative is the risk of sexual assault) and, more importantly, on the threat of sanctions.


Until now, these sanctions have been voluntarily adopted by colleges; SB-967 gives them the backing of a government mandate. In addition to creating a vaguely and subjectively defined offense of nonconsensual sex, the bill also explicitly places the burden of proof on the accused, who must demonstrate that he (or she) took “reasonable steps … to ascertain whether the complainant affirmatively consented.” When the San Gabriel Valley Tribune asked Lowenthal how an innocent person could prove consent under such a standard, her reply was, “Your guess is as good as mine.”


Meanwhile, Culp-Ressler reassures her readers that passionate trysts without explicit agreement “aren’t necessarily breaches of an affirmative consent standard,” since, “if both partners were enthusiastic about the sexual encounter, there will be no reason for anyone to report a rape later.” But it’s not always that simple. One of the partners could start feeling ambivalent about an encounter after the fact and reinterpret it as coerced — especially after repeatedly hearing the message that only a clear “yes” constitutes real consent. In essence, advocates of affirmative consent are admitting that they’re not sure what constitutes a violation; they are asking people to trust that the system won’t be abused. This is not how the rule of law works.


This is not a matter of criminal trials, and suspension or even expulsion from college is not the same as going to prison. Nonetheless, having the government codify a standard that may implicitly criminalize most human sexual interaction is a very bad idea.


Such rules are unlikely to protect anyone from sexual assault. The activists often cite a scenario in which a woman submits without saying no because she is paralyzed by fear. Yet the perpetrator in such a case is very likely to be a sexual predator, not a clueless guy making an innocent mistake — and there is nothing to stop him from lying and claiming that he obtained explicit consent. As for sex with an incapacitated victim, it is already not only a violation of college codes of conduct but a felony.


Many feminists say that affirmative consent is not about getting permission but about making sure sexual encounters are based on mutual desire and enthusiasm. No one could oppose such a goal. But having the government dictate how people should behave in sexual encounters is hardly the way to go about it.


Cathy Young


Should students in California and New York just go to school elsewhere and pay out of state tuition and not qualify for resident scholarships?


They claim that asking often is sexy. It is actually nonsexy to do it under mandate because you don't trust your partner not to accuse you. This laws actual intent it to guarantee that everyone is guilty so that getting a guilty verdict will be easier. They want automatic expulsions and need a kangaroo excuse.
 
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I just heard about affirmative consent on Collage campuses from some of my friends, but i don't have any special or useful information regarding it yet.

What has this world come to?

Common sense says to touch a woman only if you think there is a good chance she will like it, and to escalate gradually enough that if you do overstep, it won't be the end of the world.
With 10 year prison sentences at stake, courts interpret no means no to mean that unless she is unconscious or threatened or over powered or says no, he can do what he wants.
Feminists say with yes means yes that people must get explicit permission to touch each other, asking first. This puts priority on property rights over freedom of expression.
In court, a guy could claim he thought she would like it. If we codify what clues suggest she would like it, that violates freedom of expression. He can walk free even if it was all on tape since she did not say no yet.


So, the question is, how do we make a law that keeps guys from doing touches they strongly suspect will not be liked, without micromanaging people's freedom of expression? Then, once we make that law, there is the next question of how do we prove it if either of them lies.

Another aspect of affirmative consent is the guy must say how he got consent. The law is very vague on this matter, only saying that he must know she consented and explain how he got it. It does not say what would count. This puts an indefensible burden of proof on him short of him asking every 15 seconds, which no one does, meaning he will be found guilty.


We could just give women the power to convict men if their story is at least believable that he did touch her, but with a much lower penalty. However, a penalty high enough to deter rapists might be too high at harming the innocent. There would be plenty of women who would abuse it. However, currently, if a guy is accused, his life is ruined in the media.
 

Dench57

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you're starting to sound a bit rapey dude
 
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you're starting to sound a bit rapey dude

How so? Please give exact quotes and explain.

All I ask for is a rule set that is clear and reasonable for everyone to always follow, not one that is selectively enforced on a few people. I also ask for a standard of evidence that makes it possible to get the rapists, but does not have life altering effects on the innocent, who I suspect are 50%. When guilt is unknown, we should aim for deterance not justice. Redefining rape to include everyone so you can have an excuse to convict is wrong.

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http://studenthealth.emory.edu/hp/respect_program/consent_vs_coercion.html

Rape is a horrible crime, yes. But according to schools, if you tell your girlfriend "If you don't have sex with me, I'll find someone who will." That is coercion and thus rape if she does have sex. Do you think that is right?

A perpetrator may use coercive statements to manipulate another person. Examples of these include:
...

“If you won’t have sex with me, I’ll find someone who will.”

Just because they include examples of true coercion does not excuse the fact they include examples of free speech.

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http://www.loveshack.org/forums/rom...o-threatens-break-up-you-times-but-doesn-t-do

The people in this forum says that threatening to break up is something high school students or inexperienced people do, but that it is very immature and a signal that the relationship will end. In their older years, they not longer hint they might break up. They just break up if it is not working out. I agree with them partly, but not telling someone just how bothered you are about a certain aspect of the relationship and simply breaking up without telling them also seems to have its downsides. I wonder if a guy said "I'll only go down on you if you go down on me", is that coercion by university standard? Clearly she does not want to go down on him as much as he wants her to. I just don't think schools should be getting involved in this unless the person to be dumped has no where else to go and it is actually a threat to harm her by putting her on the sidewalk.
 
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Well, after reading my schools policy more closely, I think it now does not count kissing or groping as sexual contact requing affirmative consent. I'm ok with actual sex requiring a reason to positively conclude they want it. My school now classifies kissing and groping and asking for sex under harassment, which has the rule that it can't be too extreme repetitive once or too repetitive if mildly unwelcome. That sounds reasonable.
 
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