help! brainfog from avodart screwing up my life!

[Sir_LagaLot]

guys i need help and quick! .. i've been on avodart 0.5 mg every other day for around 8 months and minoxidil 5% twice a day since a year so far.. i'm quitting avodart as it hasnt helped at all and has given me the worst sides..

my problem however, is the fact that i have exams in two months, and the damned brainfog just simple wont let me study. from the moment i wake up, i have this pressure on my eyes that in turn is what i believe causing a foggy mind.. i can concentrate on reading ..and i forget what i've read within minutes of it. Its this heavy feeling right behind the eyes... i've tried sleeping for different lengths of time, but no matter how much i sleep, from the moment i wake up my eyes feel really heavy and my minds foggy.. i'm not half as sharp as i used to be.

the halflife of avodart is gonna screw up my studying bigtime.. i need a remedy for brainfog..has anybody here countered it effectively?? i'm so desperate i even tried ritalin a few times, but that didnt help one bit. Tried caffiene/ energy drinks but since thats not the problem they didnt help either.

What do i do to get rid of the brainfog (besides dropping the avodart which i have as of this moment).. does grapeseed extract help??

 

[ghg]

sh*t, man that sounds bad. I have no idea what could help, but I can't wait for the pro-drug folks on this forum to come and say it's all in your head and how "avodart is for men only". It makes for a good comedy.

 

[Def]

Never had Avodart or "brainfog" from Finasteride but what you're desrcibing sounds to me like sinusitis.

 

[FTank]

If you go to propeciahelp.com or private message mew you might be able to find something. I had the same thing happen to me on finasteride. It went away gradually after I quit finasteride. It would appear that for most people finasteride is pretty safe. But I do believe there are a small minority that is effected by the drug with much worse sides than are reported in the clinical study. It may be something like 1 in 1000 or something like that. Very rare but tends to suck if you happen to be the 1 getting extreme sides. As avodart is more powerful it would stand to reason there may be an increased risk of sides. Good luck.

 

[Mew]

This is an unfortunate consequence of 5AR inhibition for some, since 5AR inhibitors do more than just inhibit DHT (ie, neurosteroids).

For example, the brainfog some report often goes hand-in-hand with depression and/or anxiety. Suggest you read this to get a better understanding of what was likely going on, it goes into some good detail about mechanisms of action of 5AR inhibition, in terms of neurosteroids:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6904/6/7

As I and others can attest to, the only thing that REALLY made a major difference was time. Since Avodart has a long half-life (4 months?), you will likely be feeling the effects for awhile as it wears off.

Suggestions:

- cardio
- fish oil supplements (1-3g/day)
- lots of quality, uninterrupted sleep
- maybe some stimulants like Siberian or Panax Ginseng
- L-Tyrosine
- lots of red bull

Good luck.

 

[Aplunk1]

I take Avodart, but haven't had the brain fog thing in a very long time.

My advice:

Drink LOTS of water. Don't even touch soda. Trust me, this helps a lot. The brain fog is almost like dehydration.

Exercise. It refreshes the mind.

Eat healthy.


Pretty simple, but it was effective for me.

If you're still having problems, then it's probably time to drop it. Talk to your doctor.

 

[billythekid]

i would avoid red-bull.... it has far too much caffeine, this could make things worse.

only time will tell how long it will take for you to recover. good luck.

 

[bubka]

This is an unfortunate consequence of 5AR inhibition for some, since 5AR inhibitors do more than just inhibit DHT (ie, neurosteroids).

For example, the brainfog some report often goes hand-in-hand with depression and/or anxiety. Suggest you read this to get a better understanding of what was likely going on, it goes into some good detail about mechanisms of action of 5AR inhibition, in terms of neurosteroids:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6904/6/7

As I and others can attest to, the only thing that REALLY made a major difference was time. Since Avodart has a long half-life (4 months?), you will likely be feeling the effects for awhile as it wears off.

Suggestions:

- cardio
- fish oil supplements (1-3g/day)
- lots of quality, uninterrupted sleep
- maybe some stimulants like Siberian or Panax Ginseng
- L-Tyrosine
- lots of red bull

Good luck.

That study proves NOTHING:

The mean ± SD of BDI score was 12.11 ± 7.50 and 12.80 ± 7.64 before and after the treatment, respectively.

BDI = Beck Depression Inventory

 

[Mew]

Read about how Finasteride operates Bubka, the study goes into detail about how finasteride affects more than just DHT -- ie neurosteroid production. The study has a lot of pertinent info, you just choose to ignore it.

 

[bubka]

Read about how Finasteride operates Bubka, the study goes into detail about how finasteride affects more than just DHT -- ie neurosteroid production. The study has a lot of pertinent info, you just choose to ignore it.

Yeah, and it has no significant effect on depression that can be measured in this given experiment, everything else is just wishful thinking on your part

 

[Mew]

Yea it's all wishful thinking only on my part... just like every other guy who has experienced depression thanks to finasteride or Avodart... or the below experiences, or that others have already researched on their own:

http://www.keratin.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6857
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=
http://www.hairsite7.com/m586dutas26/_d ... 000236.htm
http://www.hairsite7.com/m586dutas26/_d ... 00023c.htm

If you want to believe the below mechanisms of action thanks to finasteride may not have any impact on a person's brain or behaviour, go right ahead -- whatever makes you sleep better at night. Either way, seems more like wishful thinking on YOUR part, pal.


---------------

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1622749

Selected bits:


"Animal studies suggested that finasteride could alter 5alpha-reductase activity in some regions of the brain, and lead to behavioral and mood changes. It has been shown that finasteride is able to inhibit 5alpha-reductase in medial basal hypothalamus in pregnant rats, and induce behavioral changes [13]. Significant inhibition of hypothalamic and pituitary 5alpha-reductase is also noticed in adult male rats [14]. In addition to animal studies, although there are some case reports suggesting finasteride induction of depressive symptoms and anxiety in humans, [15] but no prospective study has been carried out, in order to investigate finasteride behavioral effects. In the present study, we have investigated any depressive symptoms or anxiety induced by finasteride administration, in the patients with diagnosis of androgenetic alopecia."

5alpha-reductase is a critical enzyme in the conversion of several steroids such as testosterone, progesterone, aldosterone and corticosterone in the brain. This enzyme converts testosterone to the most natural potent androgen DHT, and also it acts an important role in conversion of progesterone to dihhydroprogesterone (DHP). DHP is further converted to allopregnanolone (5alpha, 3alpha-tetrahydroprogesterone) by 3alpha-HSD [9,21]. Allopregnanolone is a modulator of gamma amino butyric acid type A receptor (GABA-A), and increases chloride conductance. This neurosteroid has been found to exert anti-convulsant, anesthetic and anxiolytic effects [22-24]. Moreover, change in the levels of allopregnanolone is found to be associated with depressive disorders. [25,26]

Our results are in agreement with the past published reports [15], and indicate that finasteride might induce depressive symptoms. The 95% confidence interval, for the difference in the means of the BDI scores, was ranging from 0.34 to 1.04. This shows that the overall change induced by finasteride is minimal, but statistically significant. Anxiety scores were also increased, but the difference was not significant.

A decline in serum DHT level occurs after finasteride administration [27]. This may contribute to finasteride induced depression. Some studies have been shown that serum DHT level, which is in equilibrium with the brain [28], is inversely associated with depression. A study by Barrett-Connor E. et al. showed that BDI scores were inversely associated with bioavailable testosterone and DHT level [29]. Furthermore, it was found that DHT had anti-depressant effects on behavior of male rats and its replacement in castrated rats was able to partially decrease the immobility behavior, which is indicative of depression [30].

Finasteride induced psychiatric dysfunction can also be attributed to its inhibitory effect on androgen and steroid 5alpha-reduction in the brain. Animal studies suggest that finasteride has inhibitory effects on 5alpha-reduction of testosterone and progesterone in the brain and inhibits the formation of allopregnanolone [31,32]. Allopregnanolone has an important role in depressive disorders [26]. In 1998 Romeo E. et al, revealed that episodes of unipolar major depressive disorder in men is associated with a decline in the plasma concentrations of allopregnanolone [25]. Furthermore, a study carried out by Uzunova V. et al. showed that CSF levels of allopregnanolone were significantly lower in depressed patients, and there was negative correlation between allopregnanolone levels in CSF and HAM-D scores. [33].

Since finasteride is a potent 5AR type2 inhibitor and the predominant isoform of the enzyme in human brain is 5AR type1 [34,35], some points should be noted concerning finasteride inhibitory effect on brain steroid metabolism. (i) Although finasteride is a potent 5AR type2 inhibitor, but it has also some inhibitory effects on 5AR type1 [36]. (ii) Finasteride administration in humans has been reported to be associated with some behavioral and mental disorders related to low levels of allopregnanolone in the brain [37]. This may also improve the concept of brain allopregnanolone suppression by finasteride in humans

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Depression circumstantially related to the administration of finasteride for androgenetic alopecia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... s=12433001

ABSTRACT:

In this paper we report 19 patients (14 males, 5 females; mean age 28.16 years +/- 7.68 SD) out of a series of 23 (17 males, 5 females) who developed a mood disturbance (moderate to severe depression) during treatment with finasteride, 1 mg/day orally, for androgenetic alopecia (Hamilton subtypes III-V; Ludwig subtypes I-II).

Depression, which significatively impaired sociofamilial relations, sleep and eating behaviour, was associated to marked anxiety in some cases, developed after 9-19 weeks of treatment with finasteride, and promptly resolved after suspension of the drug.

Two patients accepted reintroduction of the drug, and depression relapsed within 2 weeks.

Depression as an adverse effect of finasteride has been reported only once.

Further studies are needed to confirm our circumstantial observations, which are based on a retrospective series of patients.

-------------


Finasteride: suspected association with depression

PAGE 3, Canadian Adverse Reaction Report:
http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection/H42-4-1-14-1E.pdf

A white man in his mid-40s with no prior history of psychiatric problems was treated with finasteride for male-pattern hair loss. Clinical depression developed about 3 months after the onset of therapy.

The depression was described as moderately severe but was unresponsive to treatment with various antidepressants. Treatment was maintained for 4 years. Following cessation of the finasteride therapy, the depression resolved in about 2 weeks, and the patient made a complete recovery.

A published report has described 19 cases (14 males, 5 females) in whom moderate to severe depression developed during treatment with finasteride (1 mg/d orally) for androgenetic alopecia.1

 

[bubka]

Lets see, the only study that had a nice sample sized proved to be not statistically significant

And you post some reports of a 20 n sample, and then some 40 year old guy going through a midlife crisis... maybe you should start looking into how the word "finasteride" can become obsessive :jackit:

 

[Mew]

Yawn... yea you know what Bubka, you're totally right, I'm wrong and have been wrong this whole time! :roll:

All the published materials which anyone can look up themselves on Google that shows finasteride blocks Progesterone --> Allopregnanolone conversion is all made up! And of course blocking that conversion may have NO impact whatsoever on brain function... no, of course not, blocking a vital neurosteroid in the brain that has been found to exert anti-convulsant, anesthetic and anxiolytic effects should have NO consequences whatsoever... riiiight. :roll:

Go ahead, keep cherry pickin your arguments, glossing over the facts, and keeping your head in the sand to avoid the truth if it makes you happy, makes no difference to me.

 

[bubka]

I pick because I can, anyone can see all the problems with your arguments. Your obsession with is makes you blind, this battle that you have embarked on as if the world is going to end because of this drug is ridiculous. You are being a drab, so keep to your whining *** titty baby web forum.

Propecia is for men only

 

[Mew]

Yea and your immature responses, lack of tact and childish name-calling shows exactly how little you really know, since you have nothing to offer from an educated standpoint. Youd rather resort to schoolyard mudslinging antics to try and distract from the truth of documented, scientific fact.

Anyway, since you are nothing more than a corporate Merck shill, of course you disagree with everything I present. Ignorance is bliss pal, so enjoy your pills.

 

[ghg]

Too bad that bubkas wingman jayman is no longer with us. I would've loved to see what the 2 of them would have come up with. The ranch dressing joke was an instant classic.

 

[bubka]

Yea and your immature responses, lack of tact and childish name-calling shows exactly how little you really know, since you have nothing to offer from an educated standpoint. Youd rather resort to schoolyard mudslinging antics to try and distract from the truth of documented, scientific fact.

Anyway, since you are nothing more than a corporate Merck shill, of course you disagree with everything I present. Ignorance is bliss pal, so enjoy your pills.

Mew: Say any ad hominem attack on me that you want. The proof of any lack of education is IN YOUR OWN POSTING. You post statistically insignificant studies or some acectdotal evidence. With your logic, Ralph Nader has a decent shot of whining the presidential election. Take some statistics, understand what a sample size is, know what a good P value is (especially for medical studies), then post something of some value rather than a bunch of titty baby crying.

To some it up, Mew, you fail the null hypothesis every time :sobbing:

 

[FTank]

I do know really any of this technical stuff but I really do believe that drug does bad things to some people. I don't know why many can take it with little or no side effects and then a small percentage is effected in such an adverse way.

I had a lot of sides on finasteride. I wrote them off to other causes because I had no reason to suspect finasteride and I wanted finasteride to work for me so bad. Thankfully since dropping the drug I would say almost I am 98% back to pre finasteride state.

It sucks because balding at a young age is bulls+@t. Propecia and Avodart may be the two most effective treatments in dealing with hairloss but the risk involved is scary. There is too many people reporting similiar patterns of sides effects from too many different locations for this just to be some cracked out placebo effect. I don't understand what is going on but my gut tells me something is going on. I do believe a very small percentage of people who get messed up by these two drugs may never recover.

 

[ttroy]

Yes, I don't believe that over 1000 people on the old yahoo-forum and 500 guys on propeciahelp are speculating how to fix their sides just for s*it and giggles.

bubka: Oh you little ignorant american. I do not know why you think that it is impossible to get sides just because you are successful with your finasteride-regimen. I bet people would be more happy to report no sides and hair growth than about dick problems, gyno etc.

Depression is even officially mentioned as a side effect of finasteride now (at least according to what my derm showed me on his computer screen).

Even a quick google search came up with interesting results:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/grgt56t7t9hp8uc0/

http://www.bio.ph.ic.ac.uk/~hosie/
"Our research focuses on the neurosteroid, allopregnanolone, an extremely potent enhancer of inhibitory neurotransmission that is produced within the nervous system at times of stress. By fine tuning inhibitory transmission, allopregnanolone may help the nervous system adapt to adverse situations. Levels of allopregnanolone are altered in depression, premenstrual dysphoria and panic disorder and such alterations may contribute directly to the pathology of these disorders."

So let's see..people taking finasteride report panic attacks, inability to deal with stress, depression and anxiety, and finasteride inhibits the conversion of progesterone to allopregnanolone. And this is all coincidental? Right.

 

[Sir_LagaLot]

bubka dude, honestly, if its working for you be grateful... dont sound like a broken record with 'no studies' to back it up..i give a crap about studies, i started both finasteride and dutasteride AFTER i read about them on this forum , the very first time i thought my hair was thinning i came on here and started treatment.

Also, to hell with studies, i have my own proof of the side effects of both finasteride and dutasteride and thats enough for me. i have a friend at the local hairclub for men here.. even he laughs his *** off at the whole 2% side effects, said close to HALF their patients who're prescribed "1 mg finasteride, 5% minoxidil, 2% ketoconazole shampoo and a multivitamin" come back complaining of sides or are back after a year because it did squat for them, only to select the hair transplant or HR route.

if that wasnt enough, i have gotten 10 of my friends on finasteride and finasteride alone! guys who never bother to come online or read about its sides ..they just started popping! out of these 10 guys i can only see 2 maintaining since the past 14 months!! 4 OF THEM quit it themselves because they said despite their eating, sleeping and excercising habits it was making them TIRED!.. and 3 of them told me they felt 'buzzed'! since they didnt know the word for brainfog.. said couldnt concentrate.

you've been doing nothing but going about on these forums saying nay to every poster that complains of side effects and demanding your proof..cut the crap already, the argument about 2% of the people facing sides being on this forum is such a joke! you think everybody who has sides quickly resorts to finding cures on the web? they go to their GP's and complain to their GP's..so screw that stat...

give me the damn funding for a study and i'll show you what actual side effect stats are.. i have over 800 Hairclub patients and 10 personal friends to back it up.. hell even the chemist i get my meds from says some of the customers discussed side effects related to finasteride with him.

you're the one whos brainwashed here, not the people complaining of sides.