Hormones screwed up......need advice

[NYVic20]

I have been having some problems gaining weight shortly after I started going on finasteride. (I've been on it for almost 9 months now) Almost ever time someone I know sees me, they comment on how much "weight" i have lost. I work out regularly and I'm fit, but it seemed like it was impossible for me to build more muscle despite all the supplements I was taking. Another issue I was having was that , I started to get this really stubborn Acne after I started finasteride that wouldn't go away especially on my forehead. I knew this all had something to do with my hormones and I decided to have that checked it out , and it looks like I was right. Here are my results: TSH= .88 (norm is .70-6.40 mIU/L), T4=10.2 (norm is 5.6-14.9 ug/dL), T3= 138 (norm is 60-181 ng/dL) Testosterone= 784 (norm is 241-827 ng/dL) Estrogen=196 (norm is 130 or less pg/mL) DHT=26 (norm is 25-75 ng/dL). It seems that although my Testosterone is in the normal range , it is very much on the high end. However, my estrogen level is totally out of range. This can be due to the fact that the increase in Testosterone that I have (from the body producing more test when it detects low DHT, and the unconverted test) converts itself to estrogen as well via aromatase. Not only is it unhealthy to have a high amount of estrogen, but it is more dangerous especially for me since that high amount ALSO has a more profound effect on my system due to the fact that it's main antagonist; DHT is reduced by the finasteride. I have been trying to look up articles about the effects of having both high levels of testosterone as well as high levels of estrogen with no luck. The only ones I was able to find was high levels of estrogen compared with low levels of test in older men. I thought the endocronoligist that my Doctor referred me over to, would shed some light, but he even turned out to be a bigger idiot than I thought he was. He had absolutely no clue that finasteride was approved for hair loss , nor did he have any clue as to how finasteride works in the body. I had to actually sit there and lecture HIM about the whole process (whos the Doctor and whos the patient???)!! He actually went and took out a sheet to refer to, that describes the conversion process of cholesterol to test and its various other conversions!! At this point, I was ready to just walk out... I don't even have a clue who would give such a moron that doesn't even know elementary biology a freakin MD in endocronolgy. The only usefull thing he ended up suggesting (which i was thinking of before i walked in) was to go off finasteride for like a month and then measure my hormones then, to see if its all really from finasteride, or it could that finasteride is just contributing to a bigger problem that I might already have...which seems unlikely since I started to experience the loss in weight , difficulty in building muscle, and acne (due to an increase in dht in the skin bec, finasteride has no effect on 5ar type 1 dominant in the skin) after I started taking finasteride. Ironically, I am not experiencing any of the usual side effects of finasteride at all; no breast enlargement, my libido and erections are very strong,, only the semen isn't as thick as it used to be which really doesn't bother me. I know I can prob cope with no finasteride for one month, but I would totally hate to have to drop finasteride completely as it has slowed my diffuse thinning from progressing even more. I seriously CAN'T live without it! I know if I were to stop it, my diffuse thinning would continue to progress and I would be at the mercy of topicals only which only work mildly compared to finasteride and are a pain in the *** to put over your whole scalp. I also asked the endo, if he can prescribe me some anti-aromase drugs in order to reduce the estrogen levels,, but he ended up refusing and said, that if its determined that its from finasteride, then i would have to just stop that. I was also thinking about that too, and it would seem if I were to reduce the conversion of Test to estrogen, then that would land me with more testosterone which might not be a good thing. However this is the only plausible way that I believe that will allow me to continue taking finasteride. I would really appreciate any advice on this as you guys are the only ones that really understand all of this as opposed to my regular Doctor or that moron of an endo.

 

[Pondle]

There is some interesting material at - http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss-info/ ... mastia.htm

However, I'd seriously recommend talking to a medical professional before you decide to take an aromatase inhibitor.

 

[NYVic20]

Thanks for the link,,but despite my high estrogen levels, I don't have any sign of gynecomastia although it did contain some important information. However, I know that they are responsible for other things; such as my loss of appetite and constantly losing weight. It also may be contributing to some emotional mood swings that I have experienced. (I also know that it could also be "brain fog" as a result of the finasteride) I have decided that I need to keep on the finasteride after taking a good look at my hair yesterday under the bathroom light. Under regular light, it appears normal with a slight temple recession, but under yellow light, I can see my scalp and how its beginning to thin all over (diffuse thinning). At best , the finasteride is slowing its progress down. Even with finasteride, my dht levels are still considered normal even though their on the low end. I am guessing that If I were to go off the finasteride, I would be causing a major shed (because the follicles would all of a sudden be hit with a surge of DHT), that not even topicals can probably prevent. Seeking professional help has been no use at all. All of these people , despite holding a degree, know very little about hair loss and the impact of the these drugs can cause on the body. The Endocronoigist didn't even know propecia existed!! I can bet with 100% certainty that the average HairLossTalk.com viewer knows much more than any of these professionals. The most that these people (might) know is that propecia treats hair loss. Start talking to them about the usefulness of ketoconazole, revivogen, copper peptides, etc... and you can expect a blank face from them. Also , since many of them happen to also be bald, don't expect them to sympathize and understand your situation. Both my general doctor and endo who are bald just told me to go off the finasteride and deal with it which is unacceptable for a young (20) person like me. Maybe if I was their age and married, I wouldn't care. This is the reason why this site exists;because baldness for one reason or another matters to us, and their are medicines out their that can help. Therefore, my only solution is to seek out an aromatase inhibitor in order to lower my estrogen levels while minimizing any increase in testosterone levels (since mine is almost near the max). Many of the natural supplements I've read about like Chrysin don't end up working in vivo due to poor bio-availability and absortion. Other natural supplements like 6-OXO also contains stuff that boosts test levels more than they really lower estrogen levels which is also not what I am looking for. I believe that the only thing out there that can help is Arimidex (Anastrozole), that just inhibits the enzyme aromatase much like how finasteride works by inhibiting 5AR. It's been shown to reduce estrogen levels in men by up to 50% which should be enough to knock down my levels down into the acceptable range. It also causes an increase in test by around 50% too which is what worries me, but its a risk I have to take. I know my Doctor probably wont give me a script for it, so I have to get from overseas. So far, I have only found a generic version at unitedpharmacies (and these drugs are VERY expensive!). Any know where else I can find a cheap generic version of Arimedex that doesn't require a script?

 

[Pondle]

I know of one GP who has been on finasteride for 12 years... he prescribed it to me, in fact. He may be able to advise you about other aspects of your situation. It can't hurt to give him a call.

Dr John Ashcroft

Tel: 07971472823

email: jsashcroft@doctors.org.uk

 

[NYVic20]

Hey Pondle, thanks again for all your help! I will definitely get in touch with him and ask him for his opinion on what approach to take. It also helps that he is on finasteride himself which would make him understanding of my situation. (For a second there, I though you were just making a joke referring to the ex US attorney general John Ashcroft lol). As soon as I get a reply from him, I will post it here in the hopes that someone else who might be in a similar situation and wants to stay on finasteride will know what to do.

 

[Mew]

You can try taking natural DIM supplements to start in the meantime, see if that helps bring down the E2. Arimidex is much more powerful, of course... I think most take it 0.5mg twice a week...

 

[NYVic20]

Are you absolutely sure that people use .5mg twice a week? From what I have read, the usual dosage is 1mg daily and some also have found .5mg daily (to reduce cost) to be just as effective as well.

 

[Harie]

Paragraphs are your friend.

 

[Mew]

Are you absolutely sure that people use .5mg twice a week? From what I have read, the usual dosage is 1mg daily and some also have found .5mg daily (to reduce cost) to be just as effective as well.

We're talking about Arimidex here right?

No I'm not absolutely sure everyone uses 0.5mg 2x/week, but I do know its a very powerful drug. From what I recall reading, 2-3x a week maximum is what is recommended for most people, according to those with experience at such places as http://forum.mesomorphosis.com and http://www.anabolicminds.com

1mg/0.5mg daily seems like way too much and could cause other problems. If anything taking it daily would be more expensive since you need to buy more pills.

 

[Pondle]

Are you absolutely sure that people use .5mg twice a week? From what I have read, the usual dosage is 1mg daily and some also have found .5mg daily (to reduce cost) to be just as effective as well.

I thought that kind of dose is usually given to breast cancer patients, not guys with gyno :shock:

http://www.inhousepharmacy.co.uk/womens ... ients.html

 

[CCS]

that was too long for me to read, but I read the bold. 400 is normal for old, out of shape men, in adropause. Like 50-60. 1000 is normal for fit 25 year olds. I'm sure some really fit guys are around 1500 or more. So I would not say your testosterone is low.

I would recommend a mild aromatase inhibitor, but that is something your doctor should talk about. Probably Nolva.

 

[NYVic20]

Hey CCS, I wasn't worried about my test levels being low, rather that it is very high based upon the normal range that was specified from the medical lab (Quest Diagnostics) where I had my hormone levels checked. Regardless, I believe that having a little bit more of an increase in test levels wouldn't do much harm. My main concern is that I need to have my estrogen levels lowered. While Nolva (Tamoxifen) is a good drug, it's not the ideal drug that I am looking for, since it doesn't actually prevent the build up of estrogen but rather competes with it by binding to estrogen receptor sites, and at some sites, it actually does function like estrogen, which is why most men would prefer using it in conjunction with an aromatase inhibitor.

I have been researching arimidex more, and I have found that although in many clinical trials, they either gave a dosage of .5mg or 1mg daily in order to reduce serum estrogen levels by 50%, many sites recommend using .5mg or 1mg twice a week for men. Here for example:
http://www.antiaging-systems.com/a2z/arimidex.htm
"Dosage:
In postmenopausal women the dose is often 1mg. daily by mouth. Although it's an ‘unofficial’ use, an average of 1mg Arimidex per week is used by men who wish to see their estrogen levels decline, and their free testosterone levels increase."
and in regards to the trials http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=581170
"Anastrozole at a dose of .5 to 1 mg/day could be used effectively to moderately reduce estradiol, allowing you to still remain within the physiological range. There’s also some preliminary data that suggests using anastrozole at 1 mg twice per week (for men) may be as effective as daily administration of the same dose."

If thats the case, then I would rather go the arimidex route and take only .5 mg twice a week which would make it much more affordable, rather than taking 1-3 grams of the natural aromatase inhibitor; Chrysin daily.

 

[NYVic20]

Just a little update, I am going to get my hormones retested in order to check the specific estrogens (namely estradiol) and free testosterone along with shbg, so I can be absolutely sure this time. I have been doing some research and testing total testosterone and total estrogen levels in our situation isn't sufficient enough, unlike the incompetent doctors out there would have you believe. (sighs) :roll:

 

[rocketboy]

Arimidex is a powerful AI, and should be taken with extreme caution. IMO, .25mg every third day would be sufficient. It can cause a host of other unwanted problems, and reducing your estridiol by up to 50% is highly advised against.

 

[NYVic20]

Thanks for the advice rocketboy. I already ordered anabrez (generic arimidex) from unitedpharmacies. From what I have read, the recommended dose for males is .5mg twice a week. Can you show me where it says that .25mg every third day is good? I am also waiting on the results of my 2nd blood test that checked my specific test and estrogens before I start.

 

[1750]

Just a little update, I am going to get my hormones retested in order to check the specific estrogens (namely estradiol) and free testosterone along with shbg, so I can be absolutely sure this time. I have been doing some research and testing total testosterone and total estrogen levels in our situation isn't sufficient enough, unlike the incompetent doctors out there would have you believe. (sighs) :roll:

for those of us who are still trying to find out a little more about our hormones could you please fill us in on why you need specific estrogen estradil levels measured along with free test and shbg?

Thanks a heap in advance

 

[easynow]

Just a little update, I am going to get my hormones retested in order to check the specific estrogens (namely estradiol) and free testosterone along with shbg, so I can be absolutely sure this time. I have been doing some research and testing total testosterone and total estrogen levels in our situation isn't sufficient enough, unlike the incompetent doctors out there would have you believe. (sighs) :roll:

for those of us who are still trying to find out a little more about our hormones could you please fill us in on why you need specific estrogen estradil levels measured along with free test and shbg?

Thanks a heap in advance

Bump

 

[1750]

I am in the same boat re my hormones....

High testoterone and high estrogen -

Unfortunately I'm having sides both with sexual function and moobs from what I could only be led to believe is from the high estrogen.....

I forgot that I discussed this in the past with Harie and he made mention of the following:
quote - "If you have the $$, you could also try Letrozole. It's very expensive stuff and just about eliminates all estrogen from your body. You have to also use something like AIFM 2 weeks before you come off Letro or your estrogen levels will hit the roof. AIFM = Aromatase Inhibitor For Men.

Found at https://www.anafit.com/shop/product_inf ... 1a45469395

From reports on HLH, if you use AIFM once you come off Letro, you will have no estrogen spike." end quote...

Letrozole might not therefore give you the additional testosterone spike that armidex can..... but again, may end up having the opposite effect when you come off it by causing an estrogen spike

I'm trying to find out some more info myself now.....

 

[1750]

Gents I mentioned in another thread that I tried AIFM...

well the AIFM transdermal worked extremly well for me to reduce puffy nipples and generally make me feel much better....
My energy is up and I have regained a clarity in mind that I had forgotten about

My personal recommendation is to give this a go for sides prior to trying anything like armidex or letrozole..... from reports on other forums this apparently works better than armidex anyway.....

 

[RaginDemon]

my T level is exceeding the upper normal range by 30% yet estrogen seems to be normal.