Hormones

[takenick2]

My situation: I've taken finasteride for over a year. Started EOD low doses and for the last 6 months have been on about 1mg everyday. The sides never decreased like promised but they're not bad enough to stop finasteride. I've been taking zinc (gluconate) 30mg everyday with finasteride and recently found out it isn't real zinc and doesn't do anything. Tomorrow I was going to buy zinc glycinate/picolinate to see if that would reduce sides (reduce estrogen?) but then I researched estrogen blockers. Apparently blocking estrogen causes sexual sides as well.

So let me get this straight...

High DHT causes sexual sides.
DHT blockers cause sexual sides.
High testosterone causes sexual sides.
High estrogen causes sexual sides.
Estrogen blockers cause sexual sides.

Please explain hormones because I just don't get it. I just want to keep my hair and have no sides. :sad:

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry if this didn't make sense. By sexual sides I mean negative side effects like loss of libido/ED, etc.

 

[Wuffer]

I have seen no credible evidence that suggests zinc actually lowers estrogen. This idea seems to have spontaneously appeared on hair loss and bodybuilding forums, but I am hard pressed to find credible research that supports this.

I've heard it all before also. Taking steroids (increasing T) can cause impotence, decreased testicular size, breast growth in men, and so on. Lowering DHT via finasteride can (supposedly) cause the same. Increased and decreased estrogen levels cause the same.

People simply argue that hormones are extremely delicate, and any adjustment one way or another causes serious symptoms. However, the body experiences significant natural fluctuations just throughout the day. First thing in the morning, your T levels are sky high. At different levels throughout the day, they go up and down dramatically. Same with E and DHT. It's not so much a delicate system as it is something your body is trying to keep at more or less the same levels.

Most men can take finasteride without skipping a beat. There is probably a short period of time with very minor sides, but this levels out after a while for most guys. Possibly a small percentage of guys have bodies that can't handle the inhibited DHT as well, and they end up with sides.

I've never heard of anyone successful in getting rid of sides on finasteride. Either you have them, and are lucky enough for them to eventually go away, or they stick around. I honestly think the worst thing you can do is to try to take supplements and change your lifestyle to try to manually adjust your hormones. I would say the best thing is make sure you are taking finasteride regularly so that your body is at a stable level and can adjust to the lower DHT levels. Cut out things that change your hormones (alcohol being the biggest), eat clean and exercise. These are all shown to regulate your hormone levels.

 

[takenick2]

As for zinc I've seen studies that certain forms of zinc inhibit estrogen, zinc gluconate not being one of them.

I'll accept that the majority of men on finasteride feel no sides, but it's because they're old and/or had suboptimal sexual function before using it. I started using it when I was 22, super horny, and my testosterone was 848 ng/dL (normal range is 249 - 836), so my DHT must have been high as well. That's why I noticed a difference being on finasteride. I don't drink and I eat pretty healthy. I work out, but some forms of exercise actually make the sides worse (heavy lifting like squats) presumably because they elevate T levels and there's little DHT being formed now. Also if I go more than 2 days without busting a nut the sides get worse in the same way.

In addition to zinc, I'm interested in taking supplements which increase sexual function without increasing DHT. Any recs?

 

[wstef]

To quote Donnie Darko (sorry!) "what's the point in living if you don't have a dick?". OK, perhaps too serious.

I have an ongoing side where I can barely feel my penis. It's numb and orgasms are pointless sometimes. I've came off Propecia temporarily to see if it goes away.

Sides like gyno and fat deposited in places women usually get it are almost definitely hormonal; men don't get boobs unless they have too much oestrogen.

It seems people taking finasteride get a similar sides to body builders who use steroids so it's likely they are hormonal. However, some of Telogen Effluvium sides might not even be hormonal. They might simply be becausw DHT is needed for proper sexual function.

Although hormones do fluctuate; men and women have different balances, it's what makes men men and women women...

I have been taking zinc for almost as long as I have been finasteride and I still got sides. I am dubious to trust that zinc helps much. However, some believe zinc can actually stop the formation of DHT. I think there used to be a product called Zix (or something similar) which was zinc plus other stuff and I've seen people report that it works.

There's also this: http://www.hairlosstalk.com/hair-loss-treatments/revivogen/revivogen-ingredients.php with zinc as a main ingredient.

 

[Wuffer]

I'll accept that the majority of men on finasteride feel no sides, but it's because they're old and/or had suboptimal sexual function before using it.

I don't think this is the case. I am 30, and while I won't lie and say my sex drive is what it was when I was 18, it is still quite satisfactory. I've been on finasteride for 2 years, and I can confidently say my sex drive is better than it was 2 years ago, but I attribute this to cutting down on drinking, losing weight and exercising.

Do you have a link to the studies you saw indicating zinc lowers estrogen?

 

[boobyinspector]

Those hormones rarely affect libido. DHT may assist in the production of nitric oxide which is needed to sustain erections, but it is not the only way for NO to be created. But libido itself happens in the CNS through neurotransmitters like Dopamine/norepinephrine. I mean I take Wellbutrin/buspar and my sex drive is through the roof. I actually get sick of how high my libido is. I think that finasteride probably has some other means of lowering sex drive in certain people. I take it and it doesn't affect my sex drive at all. Now it's possible for different hormonal profiles to trigger hormones like prolactin which in turn lowers dopamine and lowers sex drive. But that would have to be in quite a high amount, so I don't know how possible that is.

 

[takenick2]

I don't think this is the case. I am 30, and while I won't lie and say my sex drive is what it was when I was 18, it is still quite satisfactory. I've been on finasteride for 2 years, and I can confidently say my sex drive is better than it was 2 years ago, but I attribute this to cutting down on drinking, losing weight and exercising.

Do you have a link to the studies you saw indicating zinc lowers estrogen?

I can't remember where I saw it.

Well it's only been a day since switching to zinc picolinate, and I can safely say it's made a difference. I feel like I'm roid raging right now.

Those hormones rarely affect libido. DHT may assist in the production of nitric oxide which is needed to sustain erections, but it is not the only way for NO to be created. But libido itself happens in the CNS through neurotransmitters like Dopamine/norepinephrine. I mean I take Wellbutrin/buspar and my sex drive is through the roof. I actually get sick of how high my libido is. I think that finasteride probably has some other means of lowering sex drive in certain people. I take it and it doesn't affect my sex drive at all. Now it's possible for different hormonal profiles to trigger hormones like prolactin which in turn lowers dopamine and lowers sex drive. But that would have to be in quite a high amount, so I don't know how possible that is.

Interesting.

 

[antman]

	Start	8 wk
HDL	1.3	2.3
Cortisol, nmol/l	441	706
IGF-I, ug/l	205	88
TSH, mU/l	2.4	4.5
Testosterone, nmol/l	16.3	2.2
LH, U/l	8	4.2
SHBG, nmol/l	24.6	44

Class 11-91, n =190, ‘‘group 1’’; Class 11-92, n = 178, ‘‘group 2’

this study involved no drugs, no supplements - just diet and lifestyle change - calorie and sleep restriction - however any form of stress will cause this.

I know this study didn't measure DHT or estrogen - but i wanted to post a good study on how hormones can change with diet and lifestyle.

poor lifestyle choices = poor hormone levels

"Testosterone is extraordinarily sensitive to psychological stress, with changes in either direction depending on how the stressor is perceived (25, 59). Unlike the adrenal response, testosterone remains suppressed with chronic anxiety (11) and is acutely sensitive to energy deficit (6)"

study is in the signature "Stress and hormone (1999)"

 

[wstef]

Not to sound disrespectful, but diet and lifestyle are too easy of excuses when popping things like finasteride into your mouth.

Not that I'm saying it hasn't caused any issues, but surely when you take the drug and your hormones change then... the drug is to blame? (unless you make other changes at the same time).

What I have learned from taking hair loss drugs is that people will quickly try to defend them with "lifestyle" and "placebo effect", when in most cases it is likely to be the drug because that is the only change made to the person's routine.

However, that being said, there's nothing stopping someone who takes such drugs to live a better lifestyle!

 

[antman]

i know what you mean - i don't disagree.

the stress i had in mind was from - hair loss itself - and that does have the potential to affect hormones.

also, sides from dutasteride are linked to age, weight, depression, insulin resistance. its very possible that lifestyle change would not have any effect on sides (the 'cause' is still unknown) but there is a potential.

 

[wstef]

True. I imagine that the side effects can be prevented with a better lifestyle.

I have to agree that I was more stressed when I started losing my hair, in that vicious cycle of being stressed first, then getting stressed at being stressed.

 

[takenick2]

After switching to zinc picolinate, my dick function and libido went back to pre-finasteride normal for a couple days. It was awesome... but then it went away. Pretty bummed...