How Common Are Nocebo Effects When It Comes To finasteride?

[Saulus]

"Mental states such as beliefs and expectations can strongly influence the outcome of disease, the experience of pain, and even success of surgery.[1] A placeboeffect is said to occur when a positive expectation improves an outcome; similarly, a nocebo effect is said to occur when a negative expectation causes a treatment to have a more negative effect than it otherwise would.[2][3] For example, when a patient anticipates a side effect of a medication, he/she can suffer that effect even if the "medication" is actually an inert substance.[2]Both placebo and nocebo effects are presumably psychogenic, but they can induce measurable changes in the body and the brain.[2][1] One article that reviewed 31 studies on nocebo effects reported a wide range of symptoms that could manifest as nocebo effects including nausea, stomach pains, itching, bloating, depression, sleep problems, loss of appetite, sexual dysfunction and severe hypotension.[2]"

Considering that people who are talking finasteride to avoid hairloss are probably more insecure and worried not only about the outer appearance but also about things in general id say quit often.

Thoughts?

 

[xdjmx]

Yes totally - I just posted something about my experiences with Propecia which align with that somewhat. Rather then simply saying they are completely related to beliefs about the medicine though - I would say its more complicated then that. Its related to your overall psychological \ physical state when you are beginning treatment. How you view the medication and your expectations for what it will do does definitely play a part in that - but that is not the only element.

When you are in a negative emotional state - tired, worried, stressed, depressed etc (as many people fighting hair loss are) - there are real physical consequences. Your bodies energy levels and energy production, hormones, blood flow, immune system and just overall function is compromised. People get sick more often - they feel tired - the struggle to concentrate and perform daily tasks and the body can't heal or cope with outside changes as effectively. This is irrespective of any medication being taken. Its just a real physical effect resulting from prolonged negative emotional state (which many people worried about hair loss have.)

So when you introduce a medicine such as Propecia which makes very significant changes to the hormonal system its adding a new element on top of that. There are generally 2 key effects.

1 - How the person views the medicine - effects their overall mental state. (Placebo\Nocebo effect) it can either improve that mental state or make it worse. If they think they are going to get better - they get a natural boost to their mood, and sense of well being which improves their bodies physical capabilities as it can use its resources better. If they think the medication can cause huge issues - it goes the other way and simply make there stress levels etc higher having the opposite effect on their health.

2 - The medication then has a real physical effect on the body. Propecia causes very significant changes to the hormonal system. If the body is operating at an optimum level it appears propecia can be tolerated quite well and you get the healing benefits from it with minimal side effects. However if the person is already in a low state where their physical function is impaired this additional change can push their system over the edge causing very significant side effects. So the negative effects are effected by how they viewed the medication but its definitely not the only thing that plays a role. Its also how well the physical system can cope with the change.

So seeing Propecia in a positive way is important so you get the placebo boost ..... but even more important is getting your overall mind and body into an optimum state before you even start treatment. That way your mind approaches treatment in the right way and your body is ready to heal to its optimum and ready to cope with the physical impact of the medication.

 

[CinnamonRoll]

That's the funny thing about Finasteride. They did a very good study on it, and found that the nocebo effect was stronger than the actual pill.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5264352/

A surprising finding in this study was that in these subjects who withdrew from the study due to sexual adverse events, 50% of finasteride users experienced continual sexual side effects after discontinuing finasteride, while 59% of placebo subjects noted continual sexual side effects

 

[Alphalete]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but could a stuffy nose also be related to a nocebo effect?

 

[InvaderZim]

They're pretty common. Especially if someone is hypochondric as well.

 

[Alphalete]

They're pretty common. Especially if someone is hypochondric as well.

how do you ecape this then?

 

[InvaderZim]

how do you ecape this then?

The nocebo effect is a fabrication of the conscious mind, so it's basically a mind over matter effect.

It's really simple to overcome it. First you have to think rationally. You know that the nocebo effect is just a psychological issue, created by your conscious mind to mess you around. Your common sense will add up. Second you need to stay positive, even though it sounds cliché. Use positive suggestions on yourself and it's gonna be alright. You will forget all about it.

 

[Saulus]

you have to be pretty neurotic/narcissistic to obsess over hair to beginn with so im really not suprised nocebos are so common amongst finasterid users

even though finasterid affects your brain chemistry and might makes you even more neurotic

 

[Alphalete]

The nocebo effect is a fabrication of the conscious mind, so it's basically a mind over matter effect.

It's really simple to overcome it. First you have to think rationally. You know that the nocebo effect is just a psychological issue, created by your conscious mind to mess you around. Your common sense will add up. Second you need to stay positive, even though it sounds cliché. Use positive suggestions on yourself and it's gonna be alright. You will forget all about it.

But surely finasteride could infact cause a stuffy nose? I mean, my country denies that it could, and so do many online as well. But I have although found a few sources that say it is an uncommon side effect even though I've browsed more than 100s of threads and never found anyone with the same issue?

 

[abcdefg]

People have a tendency to think they know everything and can judge everything right all the time. The placebo effect is very very strong. If you know about the sides you will be worrying and looking for things that are weird to happen, but the problem is weird things happen and change your body naturally all the time.
Taking a vitamin everyday how many people would attribute every change that happens to the vitamin? Not many, but if you change it to a drug it would skyrocket. Everyone looks for things to tie to the drug even if the drug is not even changing anything

 

[InvaderZim]

But surely finasteride could infact cause a stuffy nose? I mean, my country denies that it could, and so do many online as well. But I have although found a few sources that say it is an uncommon side effect even though I've browsed more than 100s of threads and never found anyone with the same issue?

That's possible.

The nocebo effect can affect one both psychologically and physically.

 

[Alphalete]

That's possible.

The nocebo effect can affect one both psychologically and physically.

isnt nocebo the same as a side effect? i mean, if u get impotence from finasteride its called a side effect rather than a nocebo effect, right?

 

[Derelict]

Definitely not a nocebo effect on my part when taking finasteride, but i realise how strong it can be.

 

[Alphalete]

Definitely not a nocebo effect on my part when taking finasteride, but i realise how strong it can be.

what do you mean? a stuffy nose? did u have anything else? whats the difference between nocebo and a real side effect and how can you differentiate between them?

 

[Derelict]

what do you mean? a stuffy nose? did u have anything else? whats the difference between nocebo and a real side effect and how can you differentiate between them?

Because i was never wary about taking finasteride, my libido is slightly lower, but i can still get an erection, just slightly harder to. Plus my semen volume has decreased by quite a significant amount, i doubt nocebo can cause that.

 

[InvaderZim]

isnt nocebo the same as a side effect? i mean, if u get impotence from finasteride its called a side effect rather than a nocebo effect, right?

A nocebo effect can mimic side effects, since in this case they're non-existent.

A nocebo isn't considered a side effect, because medications don't cause it, but the person does psychologically.

 

[Derelict]

A nocebo effect can mimic side effects, since in this case they're non-existent.

A nocebo isn't considered a side effect, because medications don't cause it, but the person does psychologically.

Yes, i know that, im simply stating that my side-effects are not nocebo, they are quite apparent and distinguished. It's not the result of nocebo, although i understand the phenomena itself is possible.

 

[jiggo]

In my opinion nocebo effects are huge and more common than real side effects. I know it from my self that if I am stressed or anxious my scalp and neck gets tensed, I get brain fog, concentration loss, feeling tired, vertigo... Mild body stimuli feel more dangerous and harmful leading again in an increase of the other symptoms and cause a loop.

People here often report of sides like these which can totally be psychological. It is hard to believe that these things can be caused by your mind which makes it so hard to treat. Even sex drive is strongly affected by mentality. Of course there can be also real sides but these feel more distinguished and are not fluctuating that like nocebos.

As for me I am no longer paying attention to fuzzy symptoms and after a while they disappear. The thing is you have to really believe that this could be caused psychologically. I think thats hard for a lot of people here in a balding forum stucked in negativity and pessimism.

 

[Alphalete]

In my opinion nocebo effects are huge and more common than real side effects. I know it from my self that if I am stressed or anxious my scalp and neck gets tensed, I get brain fog, concentration loss, feeling tired, vertigo... Mild body stimuli feel more dangerous and harmful leading again in an increase of the other symptoms and cause a loop.

People here often report of sides like these which can totally be psychological. It is hard to believe that these things can be caused by your mind which makes it so hard to treat. Even sex drive is strongly affected by mentality. Of course there can be also real sides but these feel more distinguished and are not fluctuating that like nocebos.

As for me I am no longer paying attention to fuzzy symptoms and after a while they disappear. The thing is you have to really believe that this could be caused psychologically. I think thats hard for a lot of people here in a balding forum stucked in negativity and pessimism.

Do you believe that nose stuffiness could actually be a nocebo side?