So ya basically my question is does anyone know how much finasteride increases testosterone by? I ask because recently in the gym I have been getting much stronger at a fast rate. One week ago my one rep max on the bench press was 265 (which was a struggle, and ended up doing two with the help of a spotter) and then I tested it again today and it was 275 (Almost got 2, ended up getting four times with minimal help from a spotter). Going up 10 pounds in a week has happened to me before but that was when I used much lower weight (like from 185-195 etc), and this jump could be attributed to an increase in test if my test has been significantly boosted, or maybe it is just a placebo (thinking it's increasing my test much more than it actually is). Maybe there are other factors at play I am not really sure, I just remember people saying that finasteride can negatively effect strength, but it sure isn't for me I am the strongest I have ever been...
How much does finasteride increase Testosterone by?
- Thread starter Nex
- Start date
It will vary from person to person depending on how much DHT they had previously etc.
You went against the best advice on this whole board which is to get your bloods taken prior to commencing finasteride.
You have only started finasteride, things can change. You body might, over time, convert more of this extra testosterone into estrogen.
Pumping iron should help mitigate the risks of this, however.
You went against the best advice on this whole board which is to get your bloods taken prior to commencing finasteride.
You have only started finasteride, things can change. You body might, over time, convert more of this extra testosterone into estrogen.
Pumping iron should help mitigate the risks of this, however.
I've actually noticed the same.. I had more muscle gains at the gym in the last 3 months than I did 6 months working out when I was in my early 20's. Maybe it's just because I work out 'smarter' now, but finasteride hasn't hurt my performance at all. If anything, it's better.. Not to mention i've lost almost 20 pounds and my physical endurance all around is close to the best i've ever had.
I think the testosterone gain is minimal, maybe 5% max. However, it's different for each guy, so you might have had a bigger jump in t over the rest of us.
I think the testosterone gain is minimal, maybe 5% max. However, it's different for each guy, so you might have had a bigger jump in t over the rest of us.
Io went against the best possible advice? I'm assuming you meant I went with the best advice. Ya my doctor made me get bloods done to make sure it was male pattern baldness and not any other hormonal problems which was the cause of my hairless. As far as I know I only got my T tested and possibly free T as well, he could have done a full hormone profile but I doubt it. As far as I know T is the
Most important to check anyways. I can understand my hormones can still change etc. But right now all the sides are positive except me being almost too horney, which is making it hard to study for finals lol
Most important to check anyways. I can understand my hormones can still change etc. But right now all the sides are positive except me being almost too horney, which is making it hard to study for finals lol
- Reaction score
- 42
Enden said:
The amount of testosterone increase in response to finasteride is generally quoted as 10% by the studies, and sometimes not even that much happens. By the way, I've never even seen as increase in estrogen mentioned after finasteride intake, and I've read quite a few finasteride studies.
It's in the prescribing information leaflet. Bottom of page 1, top of page 2.Bryan said:
It's weird they say the line above:
Doesn't that mean it shouldn't affect estrogen? Ive seen some blood tests in users that show higher estrogen, but like Bryan, i've never seen any studies that map blood panels and show this effect. I'm curious, has anyone seen studies like these?
Doesn't that mean it shouldn't affect estrogen? Ive seen some blood tests in users that show higher estrogen, but like Bryan, i've never seen any studies that map blood panels and show this effect. I'm curious, has anyone seen studies like these?
Yes, I did read that. I'm not disputing the fact that this is true, because it's right there in black & white. I am simply wondering if there are any other studies that conclude the same thing, and i'm curious if this happens in everyone. Is this just the average, or do some people have much less and some much more estrogen? I've never seen this fact independantly verified other than in this document, so that's why i'm curious.
Wuffer said:
Would you not agree that this is a perfect example of how imprecise of a science this whole thing is? From top to bottom.
I'd imagine thats an average but probably quite a good indicator for the most cases something similar to the 65% estimated reduction of DHT levels.
Yes, I do agree with you. This document in particular leaves a lot of questions to be asked. It seems to be common knowledge around here that finasteride raises estrogen 15%; I never knew where that figure came from, but I guess it's from this one. Is this the ONLY document that supports that statement though?
A few days ago I read something that stated Estrogen and DHT remain at the same levels in a person regardless of how much Testosterone raises. If T goes up roughly 10% as a result of 5AR inhibition, it doesn't exactly make sense that estrogen would actually RISE by that amount, but that the ratios would just be out of whack. I'm trying to find that again, and i'll post it when I do.
I'm just saying that a single study may not always be entirely conclusive on it's own, especially when there isn't anything to really corroborate the evidence. I'm sure Merck did some pretty intensive testing on finasteride (they would have had to before submitting the drug to the FDA - twice) but I always like to see multiple sources that reach the same conclusions before calling it fact.
A few days ago I read something that stated Estrogen and DHT remain at the same levels in a person regardless of how much Testosterone raises. If T goes up roughly 10% as a result of 5AR inhibition, it doesn't exactly make sense that estrogen would actually RISE by that amount, but that the ratios would just be out of whack. I'm trying to find that again, and i'll post it when I do.
I'm just saying that a single study may not always be entirely conclusive on it's own, especially when there isn't anything to really corroborate the evidence. I'm sure Merck did some pretty intensive testing on finasteride (they would have had to before submitting the drug to the FDA - twice) but I always like to see multiple sources that reach the same conclusions before calling it fact.
This is what I was reading:
http://www.totalityofbeing.com/Frameles ... e_hair.htm
I'm not sure how factual all this is, but it is interesting if it is true. It says that DHT is made mostly out of estrogen. I'm not sure if that is true or not, but blocking 5AR would definitely result in increased estrogen if this were the case.
On the other hand, if someone took finasteride and had side effects (from the lack of DHT) then in an attempt to treat persistent problems took something like Nolvadex (anti-estrogen) then wouldn't the lack of estrogen in effect lower DHT again?
I guess if this were true, then taking anti-estrogens would effectively lower DHT as well and basically do what finasteride does.
http://www.totalityofbeing.com/Frameles ... e_hair.htm
I'm not sure how factual all this is, but it is interesting if it is true. It says that DHT is made mostly out of estrogen. I'm not sure if that is true or not, but blocking 5AR would definitely result in increased estrogen if this were the case.
On the other hand, if someone took finasteride and had side effects (from the lack of DHT) then in an attempt to treat persistent problems took something like Nolvadex (anti-estrogen) then wouldn't the lack of estrogen in effect lower DHT again?
I guess if this were true, then taking anti-estrogens would effectively lower DHT as well and basically do what finasteride does.
Wuffer said:
Estrogen would raise only slighly as a direct consequence of the 15% increase in testostosterone. For the most part the increase in estrogen is a result of the lowered DHT. They counterbalance against each other. If you supplement DHT (proviron) estrogen will automatically be decreased. This is why it's the estrogen that tends to be the main issue with finasteride, really.
Wuffer said:
Testosterone can and does convert to estrogen.
DHT can't. When DHT converts from Testosterone, it can't be converted back either.
Think about this feedback loop, Wuffer:
- DHT reduces by 65%.
- As a result, Testosterone increases (via less conversion to DHT) and estrogen increases (via extra testosterone but mostly due to less DHT)
- Less DHT also equals more SHBG. Extra estrogen will tend to increase SHBG.
- Result: estrogenic shift via increased estrogen levels, less DHT levels (the "all things male" hormone) and higher SHBG levels.
- In some cases it would appear than over time this process sets in motion a slow continued increase in estrogen. Also, as a person gets older their natural testerone levels will reduce giving further imbalance in the T/E/DHT ratio.
Therefore, its not hard to see why in theory people get estrogen related side effects from finasteride such as gyno, ED etc.
Wuffer said:
Well firstly, Nolvadex isn't an anti-estrogen (its a SERM) but we'll let that one pass.
I don't see how lower estrogen would lower DHT "again"? Without finasteride, you would likely be increasing DHT by pushing down your E2 via the normal mechanisms....
If you are taking finasteride and an AI (e.g. arimidex or letro) then it gets complicated. You are pushing down your DHT and your E2. That would leave you with a very artificial hormonal panel.
The effects of each would definately be balancing against each other. AI's increase testosterone and it should increase DHT marginally even if you are taking finasteride for instance. But ultimately, if one was looking relief from finasteride sides and began to take arimidex, it would only be wise to do so if it was for estrogen control. In theory it could help, but not so much if it's DHT deficiency that is causing the problems.
Here is a VERY interesting study on this, actually.. It shows that where finasteride was used alongside arimidex (albeit in canine specimens!) the prostatic volume didn't decrease (it increased in fact) as compared to the group that just took the finasteride which caused a sizable decrease in prostatic volume.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9759700
Interesting.
Just read that Wong article. I've actually seen it before.
I'm very interested in that study he speaks of, it sounds a little strange but regardless doesn't directly pertain to DHT inhibition via finasteride.
I'm pretty sure Bryan described this very article as "pants" but i'll not commit to that for fear of misquoting him.
as for this quote:
I literally don't know WTF he is talking about. LOL
His comments seem to be massively misguided particularly in respect to DHT, Progesterone and quite importantly - hairloss!!
I'm very interested in that study he speaks of, it sounds a little strange but regardless doesn't directly pertain to DHT inhibition via finasteride.
I'm pretty sure Bryan described this very article as "pants" but i'll not commit to that for fear of misquoting him.
as for this quote:
I literally don't know WTF he is talking about. LOL
His comments seem to be massively misguided particularly in respect to DHT, Progesterone and quite importantly - hairloss!!