I found an old article...

docj077

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...that I felt everyone should be aware of. Not because it's some giant breakthrough, but because it's good review for the veteran posters and a good source of information of the new guys that want to know a little bit about how the skin and hair works. This article is lacking a few newer discoveries, but it's good nonetheless.

http://edrv.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/21/5/457

A couple of areas interested me. Mostly because they seem to be topics that are talked about on here a lot and many people think that they are new discoveries when the research has been around for nearly fifteen years. Plus, some people like to argue about where "such and such" receptor or enzyme is located or not located. This will help everyone out a bit.

"N. Androgen and estrogen receptors
Sex steroid receptors belong to the superfamily of trans-acting transcriptional factors, similar to glucocorticoid receptor (GR) and mineralocorticoid receptor (MR) (36, 68). They are widely distributed in all skin compartments, and their density and expression level vary depending on anatomic site and gender (3, 4, 12, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173). The well recognized androgen effects on hair growth and sebaceous gland functions are related to expression of the corresponding androgen receptors (ARs) in epithelial cells of those adnexal structures and in specialized dermal papilla fibroblasts that regulate hair morphogenesis (161, 162, 163, 164, 165). ARs are also expressed in other adnexal structures, in epidermal keratinocytes and melanocytes, dermal fibroblasts, and resident and circulating cells of the skin immune system (3, 4, 12, 31, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 169). Similar to ARs, estrogen receptors (ERs) are also expressed in the epidermal, adnexal, and dermal compartments of the skin (3, 4, 12, 166, 167, 168, 170, 171, 172, 173). ERs have been detected variably, depending on the sensitivity method and presence or absence of pathology, in epithelial cells of epidermis, hair follicle, sebaceous, eccrine and apocrine glands, in melanocytes, and in dermal fibroblasts. Thus, both estrogens and androgens regulate hair growth, sebaceous gland function, proliferation and differentiation of epithelial cells of the epidermis and adnexa, functional activity of dermal fibroblasts and fibrocytes, wound healing, and skin immune cells activity. There are also data showing that androgens and estrogens can modulate proliferation and melanogenesis in cultured melanocytes (169, 170, 171). Lastly, transgenic male mice overexpressing GH show overgrowth of the skin that is androgen dependent, e.g., it is not observed in females or in castrated males (97).

Clinical signs of androgen excess include acne, hirsutism, and androgenic alopecia (3, 36, 37, 163, 164). Acne results from follicular hyperkeratinization, increased sebum production, and from the release of lipases and proinflammatory mediators by Propionicum acnes. In these conditions, androgens [mainly dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and to a lesser degree testosterone] mediate the increased sebum production and follicular hyperkeratinization (3, 37, 163, 164). Hirsutism and androgenic alopecia are associated with increased production of DHT within the dermal papilla of androgen-responsive hair follicles of the face, chest, genital skin, and scalp (3, 12, 31, 37, 163). Conversely, in males with androgen deficiency, the skin remains thin and fine; sebaceous and apocrine glands and sexual hair follicles remain dormant; beard, axillary, and pubic hair do not develop and neither does androgenic alopecia; and there is also a general decrease in skin pigmentation (3, 37, 163). Increased estrogen levels, for example during pregnancy, can lead to hyperpigmentation of nipples, areolae, genital skin, and facial skin (3). The latter, known as melasma, is exacerbated by sun exposure (3). In addition, preexisting nevi and ephelides darken, and telangiectasia, spider angioma, and palmar erythema may develop (3, 37). "

"F. Sex steroid hormones
The skin can transform the steroids dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and its sulfate (DHEA-S) into active androgens and estrogens (4, 160, 286, 287, 288). Specifically, enzymatic activity corresponding to 3ß-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase/5–4 isomerase (3ß-HSD) has been localized to the sebaceous glands and, to a lesser degree, in hair follicles, epidermis, and eccrine glands, while 17ß-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (17ß-HSD) has been localized to follicular and epidermal keratinocytes (287, 288, 289, 290, 291). 3ß-HSD converts DHEA into 4-androstenedione, and 5-androstene-3ß,17ß-diol into testosterone, while 17ß-HSD converts DHEA into 5-androstene-3ß,17ß-diol, 4-androstenedione into testosterone, and androstanedione into DHT (4, 36, 160). Testosterone is also converted into DHT through the action of a 5-reductase, detected in dermal and dermal papilla fibroblasts, follicular and epidermal keratinocytes, and sebaceous and apocrine glands (4, 160, 164, 286, 289, 290, 291, 292, 293, 294, 295, 296, 297). There are two isozymic forms of the 5-reductase, but the skin expresses predominantly the type I in a highly specific cellular and regional distribution (290, 291, 292, 293, 294, 295, 296). Nevertheless, cutaneous expression of 5-reductase type 2 has been also reported, but at much lower levels; this form has been immunodetected in hair follicles of human scalp (295, 296). The skin immune system can also convert DHEA into 5-androstene-3ß,17ß-diol and into 5-androstene-3ß,7ß,17ß-triol. Cutaneous conversion of testosterone into estradiol is mediated by an aromatase expressed in dermal fibroblasts and adipocytes, but not in keratinocytes (4). However, in keratinocytes 17ß-HSD can transform 17ß-estradiol into estrone or estrone into 17ßestradiol (286)."



The stuff about hyperkeratinization secondary to androgen exposure sort of reminded me of a lot of the IGF-1 stuff that has been posted around here lately. I've also been looking at some studies that demonstrate that increased IGF-1 causes hyperkeratinization and as we all remember one of the supposed growth factors for hair is IGF-1. So, it's not to difficult to conclude that increased androgen receptor function or increased androgens in the scalp will cause hyperkeratinization and a lack of keratinocyte differentiation. Essentially, preventing hair growth. What is interesting is that the article points out that men with androgen deficiency have thinner skin, lack the hyperkeratinization, and have no hair loss.

This article also points out that there are androgen receptors on the dermal fibroblasts, keratinocytes, and melanocytes. The last one interested me as some people complain of greying hair with dutasteride or finasteride. A lack of potent androgens through 5AR inhibition could definitely cause decreased melanocyte function and decreased pigment production.



I just wanted to throw some of this stuff out there as I'm kind of doing some research in my spare time. My next step is to look for a link between male pattern baldness and psoriasis. Afterall, both processes seem to involve hyperkeratinization and it would not surprise me if the underlying cause of psoriasis ends up being somehow linked with androgens.

I'm sure that everyone who is interested already knows about the perifollicular fibrosis and keratinocyte death associated with increased TGF-beta in male pattern baldness patients.

Personally, I think the TGF-beta mechanism is merely the body's way of trying to protect itself from this hyperkeratinization, lack of keratinocyte differentiation, and increased keratinocyte proliferation secondary to increased production of pro-growth IGF-1 due to increased androgen receptor sensitivity in male pattern baldness patients. Unfortunately, the increased TGF-beta also leads to keratinocyte death, decreased collagenase, increased collagen deposition, and a reduction in hair growth. Increased IGF-1 also leads to an increase in the local immune response.

With what I have written down, I can explain how minoxidil, 5AR inhibitors, apple poly, immune suppressants, and nizoral all work. I can also explain why drugs like accutane are the enemy. Lastly, I think that i can explain why male pattern baldness happens on the scalp and not on the rest of the body. The last one might be pushing it, but I might have a pretty good idea.


For everyone else, I'm truly looking for opinions on all this stuff. Don't be shy. There are a lot of good studies that are cited. Use them to further your knowledge base and maybe we can actually find a good treatment instead of dwelling on theories and studies that have been posted more that 5-15 years ago.






If this is supposed to be in the experimental section, would a moderator please move it there. Thank you.
 

kevinme

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This article also points out that there are androgen receptors on the dermal fibroblasts, keratinocytes, and melanocytes. The last one interested me as some people complain of greying hair with dutasteride or finasteride. A lack of potent androgens through 5AR inhibition could definitely cause decreased melanocyte function and decreased pigment production.

So what you are saying is that because so much DHT is inhibited, melanocyte function decreases and this causes grey hair? This must also mean that Finasteride or Dutasteride is working and is slowing down or stopping hairloss?
 

powersam

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"My next step is to look for a link between male pattern baldness and psoriasis. Afterall, both processes seem to involve hyperkeratinization and it would not surprise me if the underlying cause of psoriasis ends up being somehow linked with androgens."

type 2 diabetics and those with insulin resistance are far more likely to get psoriasis than the average joe. the first thing they did when my sister was diagnosed with psoriasis was test her insulin response and fasting and non fasting blood glucose.
 

WorldofWarcraft

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What the hell is all that mumo jumbo Doctor? I can never understand a single sentence you type.
 

Old Baldy

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I think what Doctor is saying, in part, is those of us with male pattern baldness oftentimes develop what I, as a layman, call a "rubberized callus" on top of our heads?

That's where the Morris Mann patent comes in and states we have to use peels to reduce that layer. Other things are copper peptides, SODases, etc. You know, the scalp health part of our ailment.

Doctor is looking at more technical ways of reducing the tendency for male pattern baldness suffers to develop that "rubberized callus". He wants to know the actual cause of this excess "hard" skin accumulation and the downstream effects that flow from our insidious reaction to DHT?

You stop the downstream effect of DHT and you just might be able to cure male pattern baldness without having to play with your hormones?
 

docj077

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Old Baldy said:
I think what Doctor is saying, in part, is those of us with male pattern baldness oftentimes develop what I, as a layman, call a "rubberized callus" on top of our heads?

That's where the Morris Mann patent comes in and states we have to use peels to reduce that layer. Other things are copper peptides, SODases, etc. You know, the scalp health part of our ailment.

Doctor is looking at more technical ways of reducing the tendency for male pattern baldness suffers to develop that "rubberized callus". He wants to know the actual cause of this excess "hard" skin accumulation and the downstream effects that flow from our insidious reaction to DHT?

You stop the downstream effect of DHT and you just might be able to cure male pattern baldness without having to play with your hormones?


Exactly. I'm going to look around for a good topical that modulates keratinocyte function similar to what you might get for psoriasis if you visit a dermatologist. Coal tar and ketoconazole are two compounds that do this already. One we already use.

I'm more interesting in trying to find something that can be applied twice daily and is easy to use. We can't do this with ketoconazole and coal tar as they just end up creating an unhealthy scalp when used too often.

I already noticed that a lot of the potential topical remedies that are used in psoriasis can potentially be used in male pattern baldness. Lavender, tea tree oil, turmeric, etc. Maybe, I'll find something in my local pharmacy that is already used for psoriasis and I'll try it on one of my temples. I might end up asking a derm for a prescription medication. Sometimes I wonder if all these herbs and other natural remedies that we attempt to use really stick around and help the hair.


When I find something worth while and I decide to try it, I'll let everyone know.

For now, I recommend that everyone continue to use their medically proven treatments.
 

blaze

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So Doctor,

why would even small doses of accutane be bad for hair?

I know large doses arent good due to them creating cell division similar to what chemo patients go through, hence the hairloss.
 

barcafan

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Doctor im a complete idiot but now i am also a scared idiot.

My uncle has psoriasis (ALL OVER HIS BODY) so i cant help but think my chances of having it are SLIGHTLY higher.

Does taking Finasteride INCREASE my risk or decrease? Theoretically that is...
 

docj077

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barcafan said:
Doctor im a complete idiot but now i am also a scared idiot.

My uncle has psoriasis (ALL OVER HIS BODY) so i cant help but think my chances of having it are SLIGHTLY higher.

Does taking Finasteride INCREASE my risk or decrease? Theoretically that is...


I'm still looking for a link between the two. Calm down. I was just pointing out some of the histological and functional similarities.
 

Bryan

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docj077 said:
Lastly, I think that i can explain why male pattern baldness happens on the scalp and not on the rest of the body. The last one might be pushing it, but I might have a pretty good idea.

Let's hear it.

Bryan
 

michael barry

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Im testing lavendar on a toe hair right now, will know in a couple of more months whether its a good anti-androgen.


I'd like to see if Apple Cider Vinegar could help GROW body hair...........

I think Doctor is onto something when he contends that TGF-beta (1,2, and 3) are the most important negative growth factors to address in male pattern baldness.

Im suprised, given the ablility to test these things on lab animals, that these things have not already been tested. All the things that are herbally anti-androgens like licorice, bloodroot, dwarfpalms, saw palmetto, hops, lavendar, cedarwood oil (I know this is, I tested pine oil myself and it reduced body hair), spearmint and peppermint oils should have been tested with twice a day applications to some little critter or another by now. You'd think some research entity would want to do this.
 

abcdefg

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What exactly is sebums relation to androgens? What does increased sebum do to hair? Why is there no RU product when stopping DHT and testosterone in the scalp and lowering them to castration levels locally pretty much is the preventative cure to male pattern baldness.

We know the preventative answer to male pattern baldness. Completely halt testosterone and DHT completely in the scalp only. The problem is no one can do it or no one wants to spend the money on it.
 

Bryan

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Sebum production is under androgenic control, to a very significant extent.

I doubt that sebum has much, if any, direct effect on hair growth. Don't believe what Armando says! :)
 

mumuka

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docj077 said:
I already noticed that a lot of the potential topical remedies that are used in psoriasis can potentially be used in male pattern baldness. Lavender, tea tree oil, turmeric, etc. Maybe, I'll find something in my local pharmacy that is already used for psoriasis and I'll try it on one of my temples.


I`ve been looking for a turmeric topical for a few weeks already and now that you posted about finding and trying some topical remedies used for psoriasis i remembered this product called PSORIA-GOLD . And yes you guessed it right Psoria Gold is curcumin based :) .

http://psoriagold.com/site/index.php?in ... 7a8c0a8e4e


`` Dr. Madalene Heng, a Ventura County-based dermatologist, is already marketing a curcumin-based product. She has developed Psoria-Gold, a topical ointment that she says will treat psoriasis, acne and rosacea. A 6-ounce vial costs $89.95, but Heng says the cream is so potent even in small doses that it will last six months. One treatment for psoriasis will make the skin disease disappear, Heng claims.``


What is your opinion ? Thanks.
 

docj077

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mumuka said:
docj077 said:
I already noticed that a lot of the potential topical remedies that are used in psoriasis can potentially be used in male pattern baldness. Lavender, tea tree oil, turmeric, etc. Maybe, I'll find something in my local pharmacy that is already used for psoriasis and I'll try it on one of my temples.


I`ve been looking for a turmeric topical for a few weeks already and now that you posted about finding and trying some topical remedies used for psoriasis i remembered this product called PSORIA-GOLD . And yes you guessed it right Psoria Gold is curcumin based :) .

http://psoriagold.com/site/index.php?in ... 7a8c0a8e4e


`` Dr. Madalene Heng, a Ventura County-based dermatologist, is already marketing a curcumin-based product. She has developed Psoria-Gold, a topical ointment that she says will treat psoriasis, acne and rosacea. A 6-ounce vial costs $89.95, but Heng says the cream is so potent even in small doses that it will last six months. One treatment for psoriasis will make the skin disease disappear, Heng claims.``


What is your opinion ? Thanks.


Wait. Save your money. Please.

I want to do some more research before people start buying products and going crazy.

I just found it interesting that the same products used for psoriasis can be used for male pattern baldness. I also found it interesting that parts of male pattern baldness and psoriasis can look very similar microscopically. Plus, one of the components of acne seems very similar as well. All seem to have hyperkeratinization.


I'm not so much looking for a product that can be used for psoriasis. I'm more looking for a product that modulates keratinocyte production and differentiation. Similar to coal tar or ketoconazole, but I want something that isn't so harsh that could be used daily. It might be impossible to find such a product.

Removing this hyperkeratinized areas with salicylic acid or other acid washes isn't enough. That doesn't alter keratinocyte function. That's my goal. I want to slow down keratinocyte growth, so they have time to differentiate and function properly. I don't know if anything medicinal exists that will both work. Plus, I might not have access to what I need if I find it.
 

docj077

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Bryan said:
docj077 said:
Lastly, I think that i can explain why male pattern baldness happens on the scalp and not on the rest of the body. The last one might be pushing it, but I might have a pretty good idea.

Let's hear it.

Bryan

I knew you'd ask that question and my answer isn't fully prepared.

Give me more time. Hopefully, I'll be able to put something together that will make sense to the both of us.

As of right now, I'm really basing my thoughts on the increase in androgen receptors and increase in androgen receptor function in the scalp of men with male pattern baldness and the increase in 5AR density in the frontal area and vertex of men with male pattern baldness. From there, I can go anywhere, but the eventual outcome will be the same...perifollicular fibrosis and keratincyte death.

Like I said, I'm probably pushing it, but I'm going to come up with a good mechanism one of these days. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
 

abcdefg

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Lets say a man such as myself has always had really bad white seb derm type oily flaking. My head is very itchy and ive tried everything from prescription shampoos to baby shampoo and all kinds of dandruff shampoos. The amazing thing is saw palmetto for some weird reason made it completely go away for months, but it slowly came back. Could androgens be responsible for my head itching and the oily flaky scalp? it is my own hunch that this is exactly whats going on. It is far more then a coincidence that saw palmetto also stopped the flaking. The itching happens exactly where my hair starts miniaturizing. I just wanna know why. Lots of other men in these forums complain about the same thing but no one knows whats going on.
Its very confusing because dermatologists say its seb derm, and hairloss doctors all tell me seb derm and the itching are seperate from male pattern baldness. I think they are in my case very intimately related.
I am just wondering about this if someone could quickly answer it and then keep the topic of discussion this Docj article. I do not want to sidetrack this discussion
 

Armando Jose

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Sebum production is under androgenic control, to a very significant extent.

I doubt that sebum has much, if any, direct effect on hair growth. Don't believe what Armando says!


I don't know why Mr. Bryan get bad with the mantra "Sebum is not related to hair biology". I think that there is a reason of the existence of the pilosebaceous unit, hair and sebaceous gland: the neccesity of both systems to grow a healthy hair. An example in the early steps of the formation of hair follicles, inside the embryo:

A few excerpts (*):
“An important feature of hair follicle maturation is the formation of the first hair canal, which is closely connected with the development of the sebaceous glands.â€￾

“differences in sebaceous gland maturation are basically relevant to the development of the hair follicle.â€￾


“The sebaceous gland cells in the upper part of the hair follicle had disintegrated to form the lower part of the hair canal;â€￾


(*) Development of hair coat and skin glands in fetal porcine integument
J. Anat. (1986), 144, pp. 201-220

Best regards.

Armando
 
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