Male Pattern Baldness 99% cured if you can get on meds???

[Kokile95]

Year 2021, if you suffer male pattern baldness you can:

Take oral finasteride - oral dutasteride
Take oral minoxidil or topical minoxidil
Microneedle sometimes
Get dutasteride mesotherapys
In 4-5 years more we will have for sure more topicals aproved like Breezula for extra safety


If you get no sides and are not one of those male pattern baldness freaks that are headed to NW7 at 26 yo.....


You are basically safe forever?????


And imagine that still you lose some Norwood... You have like 4-7k fresh grafts available in your donor + 1-2k grafts from your beard. In total 6-9k grafts that can restore perfectly dense like 3 norwoods for you


Why is everybody so anxious if we already have such good weapons

 

[Diffused_confidence]

Year 2021, if you suffer male pattern baldness you can:

Take oral finasteride - oral dutasteride
Take oral minoxidil or topical minoxidil
Microneedle sometimes
Get dutasteride mesotherapys
In 4-5 years more we will have for sure more topicals aproved like Breezula for extra safety


If you get no sides and are not one of those male pattern baldness freaks that are headed to NW7 at 26 yo.....


You are basically safe forever?????


And imagine that still you lose some Norwood... You have like 4-7k fresh grafts available in your donor + 1-2k grafts from your beard. In total 6-9k grafts that can restore perfectly dense like 3 norwoods for you


Why is everybody so anxious if we already have such good weapons

Few points here

First of all, balding can hit you aggressively at any age, it's less common but it can happen. So those hitting norwood 7 by 26 are not the only people who are safe.

Second, dutasteride mesotherapy I believe is expensive and not really proven. All the other future treatments are not guaranteed to reach market either.

Finally, hair transplants, even the best results, are never as good as natural hair. They only give the APPEARANCE of full hair.

EDIT: I meant to say those NOT hitting norwood 7 by 26. Obviously if you hit norwood 7 by 26 you were not safe.

 

[Kokile95]

Few points here

First of all, balding can hit you aggressively at any age, it's less common but it can happen. So those hitting norwood 7 by 26 are not the only people who are safe.

Second, dutasteride mesotherapy I believe is expensive and not really proven. All the other future treatments are not guaranteed to reach market either.

Finally, hair transplants, even the best results, are never as good as natural hair. They only give the APPEARANCE of full hair.

So you want basically to not have Androgenetic Alopecia in the first place lol

Maybe someday they will cure it completely but at the moment we are having good advances

About the dutasteride mesotherapy, I'm from Spain and here is becoming popular cause maybe it just has some shitty studie backing it up but the reality is that it's working very well, at least mantaining and in lots of cases regrowing as well

 

[Diffused_confidence]

So you want basically to not have Androgenetic Alopecia in the first place lol

Maybe someday they will cure it completely but at the moment we are having good advances

About the dutasteride mesotherapy, I'm from Spain and here is becoming popular cause maybe it just has some shitty studie backing it up but the reality is that it's working very well, at least mantaining and in lots of cases regrowing as well

Yeah I heard it was popular with a certain doctor over there. It might be the same guy who started giving oral minoxidil.

But yeah, the ultimate cure for baldness is eugenics. Not having bald men breed, but we know that won't ever happen.

 

[whatintheworld]

You are generally correct. The biggest gatekeeper is not hitting Norwood 7, or getting DUPA in your donor.

Dutasteride is not a long term solution in my opinion, it is too strong compared to finasteride and I am skeptical about its long term use.

 

[Kokile95]

Now that you said dutasteride isn't a long term solution, I wanna bring back a topic I have never got responsed. How do you switch from dutasteride to finasteride without having a massive shed? How should I cut the pill? (I can't afford propecia) should I take it at mornings or nights?

I'm losing ground on dutasteride and want to give finasteride a try.

How long have u been on dutasteride?

 

[Kokile95]

I've been taking it for 9 months. Getting worse each month.

My doctor says that you have to wait up to 15 months to judge... But I know you can feel anxious :/

Problem is that finasteride works more or less in the same way but with less DHT supression so... Honestly no idea

 

[Diffused_confidence]

I've been taking it for 9 months. Getting worse each month.

Jesus. Is it at .5mg a day? I heard .5mg is 90% dht and 2.5mg is 98%. But seriously, I don't understand why so many people just don't stall hair loss on propecia. I'm shedding horribly under generic finasteride and I switched to brand propecia. If that doesn't work I'll have to throw the kitchen sink at it. When I started, my hair loss wasn't that bad with minor thinning at temples. But I've shedded so badly that the top of my head is a lot thinner amd my hairline is absolutely fucked.

 

[Diffused_confidence]

There is a popular hypothesis in this hair loss world that says, you can get more hair loss from dutasteride because it suppresses more DHT thus you get more free testosterone on your scalp with dutasteride than DHT you would have with finasteride on the scalp. So for some people, a higher free testosterone on the scalp does the same as DHT but at slower pace.

I don't usually trust broscience but this time is happening to me personally and I think there is some truth in that hypothesis

That reason why I'm skeptical on that are 2 reasons.

1. Men with a 5αr deficiency never go bald. These men have testosterone but very low DHT.

2. A lot of these people lose hair at the same rate despite treatment. If testosterone is weaker than DHT it should still slow it down.

 

[whatintheworld]

Now that you said dutasteride isn't a long term solution, I wanna bring back a topic I have never got responsed. How do you switch from dutasteride to finasteride without having a massive shed? How should I cut the pill? (I can't afford propecia) should I take it at mornings or nights?

I'm losing ground on dutasteride and want to give finasteride a try.

Would you mind sharing pictures? It's hard to say without any visuals.

 

[Norwoody]

Pretty much is cured with HRT but unfortunately we have yet to find a way to limit its effects to just the scalp.

 

[DarkHairHair]

i have dupa and i dont respond to finasteride even after 1 year

 

[Experimentality]

Jesus. Is it at .5mg a day? I heard .5mg is 90% dht and 2.5mg is 98%. But seriously, I don't understand why so many people just don't stall hair loss on propecia. I'm shedding horribly under generic finasteride and I switched to brand propecia. If that doesn't work I'll have to throw the kitchen sink at it. When I started, my hair loss wasn't that bad with minor thinning at temples. But I've shedded so badly that the top of my head is a lot thinner amd my hairline is absolutely fucked.

That is serum DHT. Dutasteride can only inhibit about 60% of scalp DHT at 2.5mg. That leaves plenty (40%) to wreck havoc on your follicles. Individuals with a 5AR deficiency do not synthesize DHT at all. Hence, there will be zero DHT to wreck havoc on their follicles. The question remains whether testosterone alone can miniaturize follicles, or needs DHT to initiate (like a cascade effect). Personally I strongly lean towards the latter as indicated by the 5AR deficients. Unfortunately, there is not enough data available to test that hypothesis.

 

[Norwoody]

That is serum DHT. Dutasteride can only inhibit about 60% of scalp DHT at 2.5mg. That leaves plenty (40%) to wreck havoc on your follicles. Individuals with a 5AR deficiency do not synthesize DHT at all. Hence, there will be zero DHT to wreck havoc on their follicles. The question remains whether testosterone alone can miniaturize follicles, or needs DHT to initiate (like a cascade effect). Personally I strongly lean towards the latter as indicated by the 5AR deficients. Unfortunately, there is not enough data available to test that hypothesis.

Perhaps even scalp measurements don't tell us everything either? For example, maybe scalp testosterone might not even be reduced to DHT yet until it reaches the intrafollicular unit? This might be another reason why someone can still lose hair on dutasteride?

 

[Experimentality]

Thanks for your explanation.

On what treatments are you? And what do you think somebody could use to inhibit more than that 60%? I read anecdotes if people using 10 mg Dutasteride.

I am on 0.5mg Dutasteride and 1mg Finasteride daily. In conjunction, I am using a custom topical which includes Apalutamide, Dutasteride, Finasteride, Estradiol, Minoxidil Sulfate and Cyclosporine A (all in a custom vehicle). To answer your question: upping dutasteride dosage from 0.5mg to 2.5mg does increase absolute hair counts and decrease absolute scalp DHT, but results are not significantly better than with 0.5mg. The figure below was taken from this study and already gives the upshot to this non-significant difference:

There are almost no differences in serum DHT between 0.5mg and 2.5mg. On to scalp DHT. The following figures were taken from here:

As you can see, changes in hair count and scalp DHT are not significant as indicated by the error bars. Furthermore, we see that the differences between finasteride and dutasteride on hair counts and scalp DHT are only marginal. I do think that topical dutasteride/finasteride is/are able to further decrease scalp DHT, and may be useful add-ons to oral 5AR inhibitors.

In conclusion, no, 10mg dutasteride will not yield better results than 0.5mg dutasteride. I am not sure why this is. It might be due to the limited oral bioavailablity of dutasteride, and dutasteride injections might be able to raise serum levels further. I would not recommend experimenting with this. Add topical finasteride/dutasteride to further decrease scalp DHT.

@Norwoody. It could be that intrafollicular DHT is in deed higher than scalp DHT. However, in 5AR deficients, there will be no 5AR and therefore no DHT (there are backdoor pathways for DHT synthesis, but they really only contribute minorly). Finasteride and to a lesser extent dutasteride should be able to diffuse into the follicle (the trans-follicular path) where they should be able to exert their effects. The higher the concentration, the higher the effects (up to the saturation). That is why I think topical finasteride/dutasteride are useful add-ons to oral therapy.

 

[Norwoody]

What still perplexes me is how there are some out there who have lower scalp DHT by being on dutasteride, but lose more hair after increasing testosterone only.

 

[Experimentality]

What still perplexes me is how there are some out there who have lower scalp DHT by being on dutasteride, but lose more hair after increasing testosterone only.

It is definitely one of the questions that I would like to see answered. My personal take on it is that the frontal region is just extremely sensitive to androgens in susceptible individuals. We also have the problem of AR upregulation, which may occur in response to any agent that lowers androgenic activity in any tissue (5ARI's, AA's). Testosterone is an extremely weak androgenic ligand in comparison to DHT, and will never cause more hairloss than DHT (or any significant loss for that matter) in absence of AR upregulation. The trick is to reduce androgenic activity (5ARI's, AA's) while simultaneously preventing AR upregulation (E2).

 

[Micky_007]

Year 2021, if you suffer male pattern baldness you can:

Take oral finasteride - oral dutasteride
Take oral minoxidil or topical minoxidil
Microneedle sometimes
Get dutasteride mesotherapys
In 4-5 years more we will have for sure more topicals aproved like Breezula for extra safety


If you get no sides and are not one of those male pattern baldness freaks that are headed to NW7 at 26 yo.....


You are basically safe forever?????


And imagine that still you lose some Norwood... You have like 4-7k fresh grafts available in your donor + 1-2k grafts from your beard. In total 6-9k grafts that can restore perfectly dense like 3 norwoods for you


Why is everybody so anxious if we already have such good weapons

Because everything you mentioned doesn't do anywhere 99% cure.

Simple way to tell, if any of these treatments could cure hairloss even by 50%, everyone would be using it and it would be huge news, all over the news, TV, media, and not just on a few hairloss forums, but it's not

Also, the possibility of getting sides by using a combination of multiple approaches is also higher. Many people get sides on finasteride and wouldn't dare touch dutasteride, and vice versa.

Yeah some people don't get sides but the future options are far more promising it seems than what we currently have.

Kintors Pyrilutamide, and Breezula might be released end of next year if we're lucky or 2023

Then we have Kintors GT20029 which would probably be really good. It's already dosed the first few patients in the trial 1 in China.
Kintor is moving at unprecedented speed.

I'm quite interested in Gene Editing Therapy approaches via CRISPR, David Sinclair and Turn Biotechnology, they will take time but they seem to be the most logical approaches to combating male pattern baldness

 

[dehoha]

The thing is, I didn't tried finasteride because my doctor prescribed me dutasteride instead, so I didn't have the opportunity to try finas. I'm regretting about that.

It's been the total opposite for me. Switched from finasteride to dutasteride after taking finasteride for 11 months. My hairline and sides have regressed progressively without any signs of coming back. Vertex and back of the head improved quite a bit, but that was not what I was going after. Been on dutasteride for 18 days and it's been doing wonders. Most people say that dutasteride is better for hairline and sides, but there are several people who say the opposite (dutasteride destryoing hair; more prominent when switching from finasteride to dutasteride). Everybody is different, so there will be people who respond to one drug over the other.

 

[Diffused_confidence]

Thanks for such an elaborarate answer. I have further questions, so if you have time please share your thoughts:

- Why do you use both oral Dutasteride and oral Finasteride? Do you believe that one of them will make any fuction the other will not?

- Has it been documented the level of scalp DHT reduction with Dutasteride mesotherapy? I tried to find but I didn't see numbers. It trully sounds like a really good choice given that you don't even get systemic effect of the drug... I believe this is the route I'm gonna take rather than oral.

- Are you following the research on prolactin receptor antibody? If so, what is the difference between the PRLR antibody developed by Bayer compared to any other monoclonal PRLR antibody that may already be accesible?

Thank you,

Descended Dog

Not a lot of research done on topical dutasteride. I think the reason people do both is they do 1 mg finasteride a day and .5mg dutasteride a week. dutasteride has a long half life so maybe it's to avoid completely crashing dht. I think .5mg is 90% dht and 2.5mg is 98% dht.