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Microneedle with 0.6 mm if You Are Using minoxidil

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OtyMac

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Microneedling in androgenetic alopecia; comparing two different depths of microneedles - PubMed

Microneedling with a depth of 0.6 mm in combination with minoxidil is more effective than minoxidil monotherapy in patients with Androgenetic Alopecia in terms of hair count and hair thickness. This depth of penetration tended to be more beneficial than depth of 1.2 mm.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Conclusion: Microneedling with a depth of 0.6 mm in combination with minoxidil is more effective than minoxidil monotherapy in patients with Androgenetic Alopecia in terms of hair count and hair thickness. This depth of penetration tended to be more beneficial than depth of 1.2 mm.
 
kiwi666

kiwi666

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Do they use min daily and is it applied directly after needling session do you think?

Theres so many conflicting studies
 
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5minutesbeforemiracle

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OtyMac said:

Microneedling in androgenetic alopecia; comparing two different depths of microneedles - PubMed

Microneedling with a depth of 0.6 mm in combination with minoxidil is more effective than minoxidil monotherapy in patients with Androgenetic Alopecia in terms of hair count and hair thickness. This depth of penetration tended to be more beneficial than depth of 1.2 mm.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Conclusion: Microneedling with a depth of 0.6 mm in combination with minoxidil is more effective than minoxidil monotherapy in patients with Androgenetic Alopecia in terms of hair count and hair thickness. This depth of penetration tended to be more beneficial than depth of 1.2 mm.
Click to expand...
Not much can be concluded from that study. What we can *actually* say is that "for a bi-weekly needling frequency, 0.6mm needling depth is superior to 1.2mm depth over a period of 3 months".
Maybe 1.2mm takes a longer time to show better results than 0.6mm, or maybe 1.2mm is superior if the frequency is weekly or fortnightly, etc.
I'm not saying the study is wrong, but I don't think its useful right now.
 
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KNemo

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kiwi666 said:
Do they use min daily and is it applied directly after needling session do you think?

Theres so many conflicting studies
Click to expand...
Minoxidil lotion 5% twice daily with no application after needling. Needling once every two weeks for a total of 6 treatments.
 
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OtyMac

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All great questions and everybody(researchers too) are trying to figure out the optimal treatment protocol. One study does not cancel out all prior effective research but hopefully narrows the parameters slightly.

The 0.6 mm is close to the optimal depth found for mice and maybe that's why they used it. I guess they figured human skin is thicker or loss of penetration depth is close to 0.5mm. I would have thought the 0.5 mm was for penetration purposes but minoxidil was not applied that day.
Then the 0.6 mm was applied to barely get blood droplets so their goal WAS wounding and not penetration enhancement.

BUT...and others may know already, IS THE WOUNDING damaging the skin at least for 1 day where the barrier function is impeded so minoxidil applied on day 2 still has better penetration?




Results showed that microneedling in combination with minoxidil was significantly superior to topical minoxidil alone. They also revealed the efficacy of microneedling in males with Androgenetic Alopecia resistant to conventional therapies
in a later study.

The effect of microneedling is applied through the
release of platelet-derived and epidermal growth factors, enabling
skin regeneration through wounds, activation of stem cells in the
bulb, and overexpression of genes related to hair growth.

However, controversy about the best microneedling protocol still remains and
evidence regarding the most effective depth of the microneedle is
insufficient. For example, the most common penetration depth used
in studies applying the roller device is 1.5 mm. However, Fernandes
et al demonstrated that when a roller device with 1 mm needles is
used, the needles only penetrate about 0.75 mm.16 On the other
hand, Ro et al showed that microneedling using a pen device with
a depth of 0.5 mm appears to be more effective than a depth of
0.3 mm.17 Moreover, Kim et al reported that a microneedle depth of
0.5 mm using the roller device was an optimal depth for promoting
hair regrowth in mice.Considering noted results, it is necessary to adjust an optimal
depth for needle penetration. It was hypothesized that microneedling using an electrical pen device with two different depths of
penetration may help to determine the optimal needle depth in
Androgenetic Alopecia treatment. As such, we investigated the effect of microneedle
depths of 0.6 and 1.2 mm on hair regrowth in Androgenetic Alopecia patient

A topical anesthetic cream, mixture of 2.5% lidocaine/ prilocaine
(Xyla-P, Tehran Chemie Pharmaceutical Company, Iran), was applied to the area to be treated, 30-45 minutes prior to microneedling procedure. The area was then washed with saline and
cleansed with betadine. For microneedling procedure, we used an
electrical pen-shaped device (Auto MTS, Korea) with automatic
vertical movements and adjustable depth of penetration from 0.1
to 2 mm. The cartridge we used contained 9 needles, each with
the size of 33 gauge (0.2 mm needle diameter). The device was
moved over the treatment area in linear passes, lifting the device
between each stroke. Pinpoint bleeding from the treated area was
considered the desired endpoint. The scalp was then cleaned with
a gauze moistened in saline, and patients were instructed not to
apply minoxidil on the day of procedure. Each patient received 6
treatments and was questioned about signs and symptoms of infection, prolonged erythema, burning, and itching of the scalp, at
each meeting
 
Last edited:
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trialAcc

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OtyMac said:
All great questions and everybody(researchers too) are trying to figure out the optimal treatment protocol. One study does not cancel out all prior effective research but hopefully narrows the parameters slightly.

The 0.6 mm is close to the optimal depth found for mice and maybe that's why they used it. I guess they figured human skin is thicker or loss of penetration depth is close to 0.5mm. I would have thought the 0.5 mm was for penetration purposes but minoxidil was not applied that day.
Then the 0.6 mm was applied to barely get blood droplets so their goal WAS wounding and not penetration enhancement.

BUT...and others may know already, IS THE WOUNDING damaging the skin at least for 1 day where the barrier function is impeded so minoxidil applied on day 2 still has better penetration?




Results showed that microneedling in combination with minoxidil was significantly superior to topical minoxidil alone. They also revealed the efficacy of microneedling in males with Androgenetic Alopecia resistant to conventional therapies
in a later study.

The effect of microneedling is applied through the
release of platelet-derived and epidermal growth factors, enabling
skin regeneration through wounds, activation of stem cells in the
bulb, and overexpression of genes related to hair growth.

However, controversy about the best microneedling protocol still remains and
evidence regarding the most effective depth of the microneedle is
insufficient. For example, the most common penetration depth used
in studies applying the roller device is 1.5 mm. However, Fernandes
et al demonstrated that when a roller device with 1 mm needles is
used, the needles only penetrate about 0.75 mm.16 On the other
hand, Ro et al showed that microneedling using a pen device with
a depth of 0.5 mm appears to be more effective than a depth of
0.3 mm.17 Moreover, Kim et al reported that a microneedle depth of
0.5 mm using the roller device was an optimal depth for promoting
hair regrowth in mice.Considering noted results, it is necessary to adjust an optimal
depth for needle penetration. It was hypothesized that microneedling using an electrical pen device with two different depths of
penetration may help to determine the optimal needle depth in
Androgenetic Alopecia treatment. As such, we investigated the effect of microneedle
depths of 0.6 and 1.2 mm on hair regrowth in Androgenetic Alopecia patient

A topical anesthetic cream, mixture of 2.5% lidocaine/ prilocaine
(Xyla-P, Tehran Chemie Pharmaceutical Company, Iran), was applied to the area to be treated, 30-45 minutes prior to microneedling procedure. The area was then washed with saline and
cleansed with betadine. For microneedling procedure, we used an
electrical pen-shaped device (Auto MTS, Korea) with automatic
vertical movements and adjustable depth of penetration from 0.1
to 2 mm. The cartridge we used contained 9 needles, each with
the size of 33 gauge (0.2 mm needle diameter). The device was
moved over the treatment area in linear passes, lifting the device
between each stroke. Pinpoint bleeding from the treated area was
considered the desired endpoint. The scalp was then cleaned with
a gauze moistened in saline, and patients were instructed not to
apply minoxidil on the day of procedure. Each patient received 6
treatments and was questioned about signs and symptoms of infection, prolonged erythema, burning, and itching of the scalp, at
each meeting
Click to expand...
I think what we are likely seeing is the difference between shallow needles (0.5-1) and deeper ones (1+) is not statistically large in terms of results. I would personally prefer to go as shallow as possible due to the longer term cancer implications.
 
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OtyMac

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I agree on the depth part but do you have any references on the cancer part?

We also need to realize the results last at least a year past the last treatment ended. That was from the non-responders to other treatments study..
 
kiwi666

kiwi666

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I feel like not using minoxidil with my needling was a bloody big mistake I made right about now
 
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Jakejr

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You can microneedle 24 hours a day & the results are going to disappoint you. Microneedling is better to do than not to do. To quibble on the depths is bit ridiculous
 
kiwi666

kiwi666

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Jakejr said:
You can microneedle 24 hours a day & the results are going to disappoint you. Microneedling is better to do than not to do. To quibble on the depths is bit ridiculous
Click to expand...
Well I dont think people are quibbling so much as trying to determine the ideal depths.

For all we know it might vary on every individual. So yeah I hear you. It sucks that there’s no clear one size fits all solution.

I tried 1.5 for 6 months no minoxidil and got no results. I’m prepared to try .75 (the closest setting on the D2?) and throw min into the mix.
 
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