Microneedling/derminator/dermapen Updates?

[Rocknroutlaw]

I know there are a few forum members who are committed to regular microneedling using 1.5mm or deeper lengths, and some incorporated the use of lithium chloride/emu oil etc..
It has now been a while since I switched from 1mm dermastamp to up to 2.25mm microneedling using Derminator, with proper wounding causing minor surface bleeding in order to trigger collagen production.
I have been doing it weekly, and it has now been 12 weeks (as per Indian study).
It is difficult to say whether this has achieved anything. I don't think I have experienced shedding....there is seemingly no extra benefits going from 1mm to 2.25mm so far.
Since increasing needle length, I had to also refrain from using Minoxidil for 24hr each time as to avoid it going systemic (and some suggested not using it for a short time, as Minoxidil is a collagen inhibitor). I am really starting to doubt if all this extra pain and commitment is worth it.
Would anyone who has been using 1.5mm or more like to contribute their recent experience?

 

[rclark]

I'm using only 1mm (dermarolling), no benefits. To be fair, it's a spot that has been bald for at least
17 years.

All I get is some bleeding. I use it less (five rolls, used to be ten).

Not a big fan of dermarolling. I even use my medication right after it.

 

[Rocknroutlaw]

I'm using only 1mm (dermarolling), no benefits. To be fair, it's a spot that has been bald for at least
17 years.

All I get is some bleeding. I use it less (five rolls, used to be ten).

Not a big fan of dermarolling. I even use my medication right after it.

I liked using 1mm, as I felt it improving my scalp health with lesser itch/sebum and generally clean, and I could do it almost every second night. Did you mean you apply Minoxidil immediately after? I do that without any issues...except there seems to be conflicting opinions on whether it's a good thing to do.
With 1.5mm+, the increased in pain is minimal (using Derminator). The scalp becomes much more red, and stays tender longer. It's not a huge deal to continue, but I am now doubting its potential benefits.

 

[rclark]

So far it hasn't killed my diffuse terminal hair, which is on a bald spot.

The only reason I'm continuing it is because I have nothing to lose. The spots
are completely bald, except one terminal hair on one side, and ten on the other.

It hasn't killed my "spare" terminal hair. It didn't make any gains (only used since
December 2017).

 

[Murkey Thumb]

I don't think you need to go big for extra absorption just 0.3-1mm for extra absorption and the smaller the needle the more you can do it, I used to use a 0.3mm and apply minoxidil straight after without any problems each night. 1.5mm is for wounding were you aiming to get new regrowth you would also need Lithium chloride to activate the growth enzymes and possibly a Natural retinoid to target RARs.

 

[Rocknroutlaw]

I don't think you need to go big for extra absorption just 0.3-1mm for extra absorption and the smaller the needle the more you can do it, I used to use a 0.3mm and apply minoxidil straight after without any problems each night. 1.5mm is for wounding were you aiming to get new regrowth you would also need Lithium chloride to activate the growth enzymes and possibly a Natural retinoid to target RARs.

It's been debated that increasing absorption plays very little role, as Minoxidil has the ability to reach through the pores anyway, and application after microneedling causes it to go systemic, hence making side effects more likely... I have no problems myself even applying straight after a 2mm wounding session. I'm more concerned about the theory that it inhibits collagen, which makes the wounding pointless. The lithium chloride approach doesn't seem well publicised... I wish there is more evidence out there and some specialist would come up with what they believe to be the most likely regime for generating regrowth involving wounding/ lithium chloride.

 

[Murkey Thumb]

Yeah, i'm not a fan of the increased absorption makes your skin go grey. The wounding lithium chloride approach is basically the Follica approach so it should produce results. The timings may be different but a lot of guys were getting success with it 8 years ago. They would use an iodine skin peel on there scalp to do the wounding add EGFR inhibitor then the lithium.

The basic protocol that I’ve derived from the Follica patent and the research of others over the past couple of years is as follows:

1) Wounding (with chemical peel in this instance)

- Wait 2 or 3 days

2) Apply your EGFR-inhibitor 2 or 3 times daily on wounded areas. Do this for 7 to 10 days.

3) Apply your WNT-signaller twice daily. Do this for 20 to 30 days.

Its not something I would recommend but if you replace the peel with rolling then you should get a similar effect.

 

[Eazy12]

I don't think you need to go big for extra absorption just 0.3-1mm for extra absorption and the smaller the needle the more you can do it, I used to use a 0.3mm and apply minoxidil straight after without any problems each night. 1.5mm is for wounding were you aiming to get new regrowth you would also need Lithium chloride to activate the growth enzymes and possibly a Natural retinoid to target RARs.

Youre overthinking things. No one used those chemicals in the 2013 study and everyone had a big increase in regrowth so for whatever reason it works and should be part of the Big 4 imo. There are no downsides to doing it and evidence suggests only good things

 

[Rocknroutlaw]

Thanks for your replies guys. I'm feeling rather inadequate when it comes to understanding EGFR/WNT-signalling etc. I feel like I need to read up a lot more, as a quick read doesn't reveal very much.
I take @Eazy12 's point as well though; in the 2013 study wounding alone was able to achieve positive results without other interventions. I feel that micro-needling should be at least as effective Nizorol etc (longer lasting effect with wounding, as opposed to shampoo which quickly washes off the scalp). If carried out correctly, micro-needling also helps renewing skin and addresses the inflammation issue (as Keto shampoos do).
Rarely does one single option of the 'Big 3' alone achieve anything. Micro-needling is cost effective (even with purchasing Derminator/Dermapen) and unlikely to cause any further hairloss (unlike Finasteride, which in rare cases ruined some people), so arguably it could be considered as one of the 'Big 4'.
I guess the weekly wounding shall continue....

 

[Murkey Thumb]

I don't think wounding alone does too much by itself apart from adding to absorption. A natural EGFR-inhibitor would be something soy based like Genistein and WNT-signaller would be lithium chloride both relatively cheap and safe.

 

[furrydome]

Would anyone who has been using 1.5mm or more like to contribute their recent experience?

I'm gonna make claims without pics, so go ahead and be skeptical. The point is that it's smart to be patient and remain optimistic.

Was stable NW3, on finasteride and min. Started needling with Derminator, 1.5mm every other week. No WNT signaler, no other drugs, just a needle session, topical antibiotic ointment for safety, then minoxidil 24 hours later. Don't remember how long it took (couple of months probably?) but NW2 vellus started appearing. That was enough motivation to keep going. So I kept doing it, same procedure. A year later, NW2 was maybe 2/3 vellus and 1/3 terminal.

After the 1 year point I started tweaking the regimen a bit. Added RU 7.5%, started seeing NW1 vellus within weeks. Months later doubled the RU dose, started seeing faster vellus growth again within weeks. Also got pretty severe skin dryness, so looked for an alternative. Started Daro 0.1% and dropped the RU. Side effects improved, growth continued mostly the same or possibly even improved (hard to tell).

Now at the ~21 month point, I have a nearly full NW2, though some of the temple area still hasn't gone terminal. New vellus keeps appearing lower into the NW1 area. Even though they're thin and not pigmented, some of these were peach fuzz for, no joke, 10 years.

The hairline is moving forward little by little. I keep seeing the same pattern: tiny hairs at the hairline popping up, growing longer, then re-appearing thicker. There are probably 5 or so different lengths of hairs at the hairline, the longest ones are thick and pigmented, the shortest ones just "vellus". They're all growing, and new ones keep appearing.

It's slow... really slow, but it's working. Would I really make all this sh*t up? Look at my post history.

I just want people to be patient and stay optimistic. You have to. If you don't, you lose no matter what treatment you're on.

 

[Rocknroutlaw]

I'm gonna make claims without pics, so go ahead and be skeptical. The point is that it's smart to be patient and remain optimistic.
It's slow... really slow, but it's working. Would I really make all this sh*t up? Look at my post history.
I just want people to be patient and stay optimistic. You have to. If you don't, you lose no matter what treatment you're on.

It's always great to hear success stories. I don't doubt your story at all, in fact I'm thinking my minor success is a lesser version of yours. I have been using 1mm dermastamp for the last 2 years in conjunction with Finasteride/Minoxidil. I guess I could also claim to have progessed from NW3v to having some darkened NW2 vellus hair, unfortunately they are solitary and would not grow any longer than 1.5cm max. I would say strictly speaking I have not progressed to NW2 (and although the top has thickened, I don't think I can drop the 'v' out of NW3v) but cosmetically it has definitely improved.
I totally agree with the patience and optimism, however, I suspect you are one of the luckier ones who responded particularly well with microneedling. I have attempted RU for almost 9 months until I decided it did not add any benefits on top of my various treatments. Having to work around the Minoxidil application times etc...it was all too much for seemingly no gain.
As great as your results have been so far, I think it highlighted one thing: we can't turn our miniaturised hair into a bunch of pigmented terminal hair which grow normally; the best we can do is developing more peach fuzz, of which some become pigmented, but only grow up to a short length. For a buzz cut, there would be a massive improvement in appearance as those spare solitary follicles darken. If you're happy with where you are, great! I personally do not like buzz cuts or any short hair styles.
I am determined to keep up the 2-2.25mm microneedling weekly (up from 1mm every second day). I guess if this eventually proved beneficial, then I could conclude it is the wounding by microneedling that promotes growth, and improving absorption simply is'nt enough. If it adds no value however, then perhaps my peach fuzz is beyond repairs.

 

[Trying2]

Loving this thread! Any other ideas for after wounding topicals? I’m using jojoba oil, coconut oil, peppermint, rosemary and castor oil. Will have to get on lithium chloride

 

[JWM2]

Just did my first dermastamp wounding session on Monday. SO much easier than a roller!