needling?
- Thread starter jd24
- Start date
My opinion is that it is a complete waste of time and I haven't seen evidence that backs it up. Once I see valid pictures that prove it's effective I'll try it, otherwise I'll save myself the (literal) headache. I was on a forum (hairlosshelp.com I think) but these people went on a crazy tirade about this subject and nothing ever came to fruition. I think the topic originator was probably working for the Dermaroller company.
On a side note, I have heard that Follica is using a similar technique although they use some special chemical injections that work with this process. I think 'needling' your scalp alone is pretty ridiculous.
On a side note, I have heard that Follica is using a similar technique although they use some special chemical injections that work with this process. I think 'needling' your scalp alone is pretty ridiculous.
michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 12
do NOT needle your scalp. You will cause uneccessary scar tissue up there.
Follica found out that wounds needed only be deep enough to disrupt the epidermal layer to cause de noveau (brand new) hair growth with a WNT-7A compound added. They used both dermabrasion and incision wounds in experiments (cut with a knife surgically). The needling "pushers" probably are indeed either people who sell dermarollers or people who have not bothered to read the follica patent.
Causing scar tissue up there will make it more difficult for hair to grow, even hair transplanted hair does not grow as well in scars.
What Follica appears to be doing is this;..............................they will depilate the scalp (plucking the hair) with a compound somewhat like the commercial product Nair......and then they wait for three days before dermabrasion.
2) They will abrade the scalp via professional dermabrasion--------although sandpaper is one of the "defensive" embodiments in their patent. You wait three days again, in which time you put absolutely nothing on your scalp at all. In fact, you will probably be advised to only water-clean the scalp for three or four or even five days. No ointments, no anti-infectives, no BANDAGES, and probably no sleeping on the treated area.
3) you will be taking a very expensive epidermal growth factor BLOCKING drug so that your body cannot just repair the skin.........it will force the epidermal cells to make new hair follicles to give off the proper signalling to rejuvinate the skin just like it happens in wounded animals out in the wild
4) after day 3, they will put a compound on your head that is composed of WNT protiens, especailly wnt-7a. IN experiments, the group treated with wnt7a grew 140 hairs in the abraded area vs. 10 hairs for the wounded-only group.
This will continue from day 3-thru-12 after the wounding. The compound they put on your head will have alot more in it however. Number one, they probably will ask you to be on finasteride for the entire duration of this process......about 18 days anyway, or to use a topical anti-androgen (flutamide, fluridil, cyterperone acentate, and spironolactone are mentioned as possibles in the patent), but the topical they will have will consist of things they tried and found to augment the hair growth, some were bits of DNA, others were Fiberblast growth factor, minoxidil, bromoindirubin-3'-oxime (BIO, hedgehog, certain dna fragments, particular nucleotides, hair follicle stem cells, DP cells, inner and outer root sheath cells, estrogen receptor agonsists and possibly (but not likely) beta catenin (that one might be dangerous, even for only nine days).
You would be well advised not to try it at home unless you thouroughly read the patent three or four times, every boring word, and have a scientific background in my opinion. You dont want to do something freak and wind up with thicker skin or more sebaceous glands however remote the chances of that may be.
They expect a product to be out in as little as three years or a little more if their experiments go well in human beings. Their experiments did go well on human skin grafted on to a mouse that grew human hair, so they are confident......
Again, needling alone, probably would not be very effective in growing much hair........................You'd literally be better of sandpapering, waiting three days and adding some of the chemicals they mention in their patent from day three to twelve after the wounding, but even then.......................you probably wouldn't grow much hair. Blocking epidermal growth factor, the pre-emptive depilation of existing follicles three days before all seem to be important factors in them being successful. It would be better to waiit for them to develop their product in my opinion unless you are a doctor experienced in this kind of thing.
Follica found out that wounds needed only be deep enough to disrupt the epidermal layer to cause de noveau (brand new) hair growth with a WNT-7A compound added. They used both dermabrasion and incision wounds in experiments (cut with a knife surgically). The needling "pushers" probably are indeed either people who sell dermarollers or people who have not bothered to read the follica patent.
Causing scar tissue up there will make it more difficult for hair to grow, even hair transplanted hair does not grow as well in scars.
What Follica appears to be doing is this;..............................they will depilate the scalp (plucking the hair) with a compound somewhat like the commercial product Nair......and then they wait for three days before dermabrasion.
2) They will abrade the scalp via professional dermabrasion--------although sandpaper is one of the "defensive" embodiments in their patent. You wait three days again, in which time you put absolutely nothing on your scalp at all. In fact, you will probably be advised to only water-clean the scalp for three or four or even five days. No ointments, no anti-infectives, no BANDAGES, and probably no sleeping on the treated area.
3) you will be taking a very expensive epidermal growth factor BLOCKING drug so that your body cannot just repair the skin.........it will force the epidermal cells to make new hair follicles to give off the proper signalling to rejuvinate the skin just like it happens in wounded animals out in the wild
4) after day 3, they will put a compound on your head that is composed of WNT protiens, especailly wnt-7a. IN experiments, the group treated with wnt7a grew 140 hairs in the abraded area vs. 10 hairs for the wounded-only group.
This will continue from day 3-thru-12 after the wounding. The compound they put on your head will have alot more in it however. Number one, they probably will ask you to be on finasteride for the entire duration of this process......about 18 days anyway, or to use a topical anti-androgen (flutamide, fluridil, cyterperone acentate, and spironolactone are mentioned as possibles in the patent), but the topical they will have will consist of things they tried and found to augment the hair growth, some were bits of DNA, others were Fiberblast growth factor, minoxidil, bromoindirubin-3'-oxime (BIO, hedgehog, certain dna fragments, particular nucleotides, hair follicle stem cells, DP cells, inner and outer root sheath cells, estrogen receptor agonsists and possibly (but not likely) beta catenin (that one might be dangerous, even for only nine days).
You would be well advised not to try it at home unless you thouroughly read the patent three or four times, every boring word, and have a scientific background in my opinion. You dont want to do something freak and wind up with thicker skin or more sebaceous glands however remote the chances of that may be.
They expect a product to be out in as little as three years or a little more if their experiments go well in human beings. Their experiments did go well on human skin grafted on to a mouse that grew human hair, so they are confident......
Again, needling alone, probably would not be very effective in growing much hair........................You'd literally be better of sandpapering, waiting three days and adding some of the chemicals they mention in their patent from day three to twelve after the wounding, but even then.......................you probably wouldn't grow much hair. Blocking epidermal growth factor, the pre-emptive depilation of existing follicles three days before all seem to be important factors in them being successful. It would be better to waiit for them to develop their product in my opinion unless you are a doctor experienced in this kind of thing.
michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 12
By the way.,//////////////////////it was also found that wounds needed to be about one centimeter to 1.5 centimenters in circumference to really be effective in making much new hair instead of a freak hair or two.
rusty_y2k2
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 0
so when this follica does finally come out, you'll need to write off a good 2 weeks for treatment I'm guessing?
Then after your two weeks off, you go back to work with a distinctly buzzed/slap head look until finally your newly luscious locks start to get some length to them... lol. It does sound like the answer to our problems, but I wish it didn't involve removing your existing hair in the process! (I'm talking about diffuse thinning here as that is what I'm suffering from - obviously if you were only getting temples or crown treated you'd probably not look much different for the depilation/dermabrasion)
Michael - perhaps you can clear this up for me since you obviously know a fair bit more about the process... but you mention they pluck the hair, but then mention the use of something like nair, which as far as i understand it is basically like shaving... the chemicals make the hair all weak and soft and then a scraper cuts it off.
The reason I ask is that in my experience it takes a whole lot longer for hair to grow back after being plucked (like, waxed for example) versus being depilated by chemical means. If you were to have your head effectively waxed you'd be a proper shiney bald man for a good couple of weeks which doesn't really appeal to me.
Then after your two weeks off, you go back to work with a distinctly buzzed/slap head look until finally your newly luscious locks start to get some length to them... lol. It does sound like the answer to our problems, but I wish it didn't involve removing your existing hair in the process! (I'm talking about diffuse thinning here as that is what I'm suffering from - obviously if you were only getting temples or crown treated you'd probably not look much different for the depilation/dermabrasion)
Michael - perhaps you can clear this up for me since you obviously know a fair bit more about the process... but you mention they pluck the hair, but then mention the use of something like nair, which as far as i understand it is basically like shaving... the chemicals make the hair all weak and soft and then a scraper cuts it off.
The reason I ask is that in my experience it takes a whole lot longer for hair to grow back after being plucked (like, waxed for example) versus being depilated by chemical means. If you were to have your head effectively waxed you'd be a proper shiney bald man for a good couple of weeks which doesn't really appeal to me.
michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 12
Follica is just now reaching the point to where they will begin human trials. They have already recruited for their first trial.
You will not necessarily have to shave your head to "get it", and you probably wont have to undergo depilation if you dont want to----but the treatment probably wont be as effective unless you do.
It will take longer than two weeks for hair to appear also. This is like hair forming FETALLY (like when you were a fetus), so it may be some five, six, seven weeks or so before it actually emerged from the scalp.
I imagine they will be able to dermabrate between existing hairs at a dermatologists office also with instrumentation if you didnt want to go bare. That will probably be an option for someone. Businessmen for instance might take such a route. Only the balding area need be treated--------so if all one had was temporal recession or a bald spot, it would not be necessary to treat the whole head.
It will be a few years before this comes out. They will have human trials first, and then see if the FDA or some other body will regulate it. Dermabrating your head and putting minoxidil on it 3 days later for a period of 10 days isn't something the FDA can regulate, but other parts of the patents procedures (like beta catenin, and wnt protiens, and BCX, and DNA fragments, and epidermal growth factor inhibitors, etc) are things they probably would step in on. Dr Nancy Snyderman, NBC News Medical correspondent thought it could be as soon as three years.
You will not necessarily have to shave your head to "get it", and you probably wont have to undergo depilation if you dont want to----but the treatment probably wont be as effective unless you do.
It will take longer than two weeks for hair to appear also. This is like hair forming FETALLY (like when you were a fetus), so it may be some five, six, seven weeks or so before it actually emerged from the scalp.
I imagine they will be able to dermabrate between existing hairs at a dermatologists office also with instrumentation if you didnt want to go bare. That will probably be an option for someone. Businessmen for instance might take such a route. Only the balding area need be treated--------so if all one had was temporal recession or a bald spot, it would not be necessary to treat the whole head.
It will be a few years before this comes out. They will have human trials first, and then see if the FDA or some other body will regulate it. Dermabrating your head and putting minoxidil on it 3 days later for a period of 10 days isn't something the FDA can regulate, but other parts of the patents procedures (like beta catenin, and wnt protiens, and BCX, and DNA fragments, and epidermal growth factor inhibitors, etc) are things they probably would step in on. Dr Nancy Snyderman, NBC News Medical correspondent thought it could be as soon as three years.
rusty_y2k2
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 0
thanks for the reply!
Here's hoping to keep a reasonable amount of hair until it comes out lol....
Here's hoping to keep a reasonable amount of hair until it comes out lol....
billythekid
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 2
michael barry said:
well i'm not a dermaroller pusher. if i decided to needle, i would use lancets, you get more control and they are so much cheaper.
i doubt that it can cause scars since the needles are not long enough to do so.
from all of the searching i've done, it appears people are happy with the results, whilst few state it does nothing.
at the same time, there is little proof that needling works.