Penile fibrosis (rat study)

[Fanjeera]

http://www.asiaandro.com/archive/1008-682X/5/33.htm

And look at the pictures! You can see the change with your own eyes. And fiborsis is always irreversible. That's why Propecia causes permanent problems with erections.

 

[Fanjeera]

It should be pointed out that the rats were only 9 weeks old and they live up to 3,5 years. And they were given finasteride for 4 weeks which is like 1/36 of their lives. So short-term finasteride usage shouldn't do anything, but if you're on it for years, I would be worried.
But still, 9 week old rats are like in their puberty, aren't they?

 

[Wuffer]

A few problems with this study. These rats were given 4.5mg finasteride per kg of body weight. Humans take roughly 0.0125mg finasteride per kg per day. That's roughly 360 times more than a man would take for hair loss.

Secondly, as you mentioned, I believe a 9-week old rat would still be going through sexual changes. It might be the same as giving a 12 yearold boy finasteride for a few years while he's going through puberty. This would seriously affect sexual development, which is why men under 18 should stay far away from Finasteride.

Animal studies generally can't be directly applied to humans, but they are a good indication that similar problems may occur in humans as well. I would like to see a study done on rats that have completed sexual maturity, and are given the regular 1mg dosage of finasteride.

 

[Wuffer]

Monty, I honestly don’t believe my post was defending finasteride in any way. In fact, I feel it was very accurate and without bias. I feel the points I brought up were completely valid and highlighted some of the deficiencies in the study. If you have a reasonable argument that negates the points I have made, I would encourage you to do so. As I mentioned, I am no expert on the subject of pharmaceuticals or animal physiology, so please present your arguments and we can discuss this subject further.

I’ve seen these rat studies brought up a number of times on a number of forums. The conclusion that is repeatedly and invariably reached is: “This study proves that rat suffer penile damage from finasteride, which means that every man that takes the drug will suffer the same damagesâ€. This is completely inaccurate and I’ve highlighted the reasons why. As I said in my post, it COULD indicate that the same is happening to humans, but this conclusion cannot be reached because it has not yet been observed in humans. Do you disagree with these statements? If so, please explain why. Additionally, if you can provide an argument that supports the reason why these rat studies should be deemed applicable to humans, I would like to hear them. Better yet, if we could hear from someone with a medical background, that would be great.

I don’t understand your analogy on what Finasteride was originally intended for. v**** was originally created as a heart medication. I was found to help with erectile dysfunction, so the company pursued approval for this use. Finasteride was originally created for treating prostate issues. It was also found to help with hair loss, so Merck pursued approval for this use. What are you suggesting here? Please explain to me how bias comes into play here? Imagine you were the president of Merck 10 years ago, and you found Proscar also treats hair loss. You would refuse to pursue a patent for this use because of the fact the drug was originally created to treat prostate issues? Merck is biased because they want to make money? What do you think pharmaceutical companies actually do, anyway?

So if I take the point of your post, are you suggesting that I should no longer encourage others to take Finasteride based on my own experience on the drug? Should the norm be that everyone automatically discourages everyone from taking the drug, regardless of their personal experience? I’m not quite sure what you want from me. You just said in your post: “I hate the drug, HATE itâ€. This shows me how strong your bias is. I’m genuinely sorry that you have had such a bad experience with 5ARI drugs, but I’m offended that you suggest I should no longer voice my opinion because it is unpopular.

 

[Rawtashk]

I don't get why people who don't have problems with finasteride are the ones that get jumped like they're the bad guys. This is a HAIRLOSS FORUM, not a "I HATE THE sh*t OUT OF PROPECIA!!!" forum.

Again, how are us that don't have side effects the bad guys? Not only that, but we're in the MAJORITY of people who've used finasteride.

 

[Fanjeera]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22375859
With adult rats this time. 25% decrease of weight after 4 weeks of treatment. 4 weeks is still too much for rats, I think.

And again I see something strange, when I read a study the second time.
"The tissue weights of the corpus cavernosum and prostate were reduced by 25.9% and 92.3%." Prostate decrease by 92,3%!? That certainly doesn't happen in humans, am I right? 92,3% is a lot and that would mean there is almost no prostate left there at all.
Perhaps it indicates that our genital tracts are not that alike and we can't assume anything based on rat studies in this area.

 

[Fanjeera]

Rats complete puberty on the 6th week. http://www.ratbehavior.org/RatYears.htm

 

[Rawtashk]

I am fairly certain that a good number of guys take finasteride to try and keep their hair on their head "for mental health" as well

 

[Fanjeera]

But one day, when you don't have enough money for the drug, you will lose your hair still and are left with a light penis filled with collagen not muscle.

 

[Wuffer]

But one day, when you don't have enough money for the drug, you will lose your hair still and are left with a light penis filled with collagen not muscle.

lol.. Why would we suddenly not have enough money for the drug? Maybe if we were p**rn stars, we wouldn't be able to make a good living with our 'light' collagen filled penises. I am fairly certain I would be able to scrape together $50 for a years worth supply of proscar.. In fact in the states I heard you can get a year supply for $9 at Walmart.

This is very anecdotal, but i've been on Finasteride for over a year, which adjusted for life span, is about a long as the rats were on it for. When erect, my penis is the exact same size (girth and length) to the mm as it was about 3 years ago, the last time I meticulously measured my member. Why is it not 25% smaller, as you suggest it should be? Surely, after a year, I should have the same effects as the rats experienced, no?

 

[Fanjeera]

We're talking about flaccid size. When it's erect it will fill with blood as good as normal, because the smooth muscle cells are still working and the trabeculi will form. But when flaccid the impact of the collagen and elastin fibers will prevail, because the muscles are not active. At least that's what I see every where: loss of sensation and size of flaccid penis.

 

[Fanjeera]

We're talking about flaccid size. When it's erect it will fill with blood as good as normal, because the smooth muscle cells are still working and the trabeculi will form. But when flaccid the impact of the collagen and elastin fibers will prevail, because the muscles are not active. At least that's what I see every where: loss of sensation and size of flaccid penis.

 

[Fanjeera]

We're talking about flaccid size. When it's erect it will fill with blood as good as normal, because the smooth muscle cells are still working and the trabeculi will form. But when flaccid the impact of the collagen and elastin fibers will prevail, because the muscles are not active. At least that's what I read every where: loss of sensation and size of flaccid penis.