Picture of new de noveau hair growing on mouse from wounding

[michael barry]

This is from Follica----Costarialis/Stenn's research.

http://www.sciencefriday.com/newsbriefs/read/117



You will notice the wound has to be five millimeters deep, cannot be closed, but has to heal without any medical help, needs wnt protiens present---lithium chloride topcally can do that, and the hair will be white. But it does produce hair where their was NONE. The skin makes it through epidermal cells reorganizing skin cells to become hair cells. Some genetcially hairless mice have been growing hair using this research, which is very impressive. Have no idea how far off something like this may be, but its good that multiple approaches are being looked into too. This might benefit blondes more than other guys though-----unless someone really likes using alot of hair color.

 

[Jkkezh]

I mentioned this before but I heard from a morrocan guy, who said his father regrew hair on his bald spot after a traditional treatment with razor blades and garlic...Basically they made a lot of small cuts on the bald spot and rubbed this in with chrushed garlic (wound was left open). So I think this would probaby cause a wound somewhat similar to the one mentioned in the article, don't know what the benefit of the garlic would be... perhaps it leaves the wound open longer, increases bloodflow, disinfects or ups wnt protein signalling somehow, .

Anyway if I understood the article correctly the wnt proteins are already present naturally (though increasing them would be better indeed). So this treatment could (in theory) already work, you just need a razor blade and be a little crazy.

 

[newguy23]

this is a pretty interesting theory hopefully it will be perfected and on the market soon. i was wondering would this procedure be a one shot deal or would u have to keeep goin in for further follow-up treatments? not that it matters if the method actually works

 

[Jkkezh]

From a thread on regrowth.com

http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums ... =1&t=18550
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum



Wounding can release cells from contact inhibition. So if hair growth is in any way inhibited by contact inhibition wounding might help in that way too. Maybe this is why the wound has to be open for quite some time to regrow hair, because if the wound closes contact inhibition could take over again. Wnt/beta-catenin also regulate contact inhibition in some way...

Btw: In the interview the researcher mentiones that treatment might include something like dermabrasion (basically sanding the skin, or with laser) in combination with another topical compound.

He also mentioned that there was one dermatologist Albert Klingmann who saw hair follicle regenesis in humans after dermabrasion treatment years/decades ago. Several others have seen these effects on rabbits decades ago as well....

The procedure is very painful and usually requires a general anaesthetic or twilight anaesthesia, in which the patient is still partly conscious. Afterward, the skin is very red and raw-looking, and it takes several months for the skin to regrow and heal

Hmm so don't try this at home

 

[elguapo]

The thing is, let's say a guy who is Norwood V actually does this on his scalp, and let's say new hairs actually do grow in. Are those hairs susceptible to DHT? And if they are, would they be lost to DHT much quicker? Because our bodies don't produce testosterone (and DHT) until we reach adulthood. But being that the Norwood V is already an adult, and his DHT factory is already up and running, my guess is that those new hairs won't last very long.

The flipside is, if it does work, maybe yet ANOTHER wound can be induced after the second set of skin/follicles grows in and later dies off to DHT. Wound your scalp every 5 or so years, and you essentially never go bald, less the time it takes to heal.

 

[Jkkezh]

My guess is that those new hairs would indeed still be susceptible to DHT, so you'd need to continue treatment. The new hairs were white so you'd also need to dye your hair, but maybe its different in humans. It doesn't promise to be the perfect treatment but probably a lot cheaper than hair cloning etc..

I am really curious what that dermatologist Albert Klingman found exactly when he saw new hair follicles after dermabrasion treatment on people, I wasn't able to find the publication online anywhere probably because it's very old..

 

[michael barry]

,.......................based on the fact that our hairs form in embyological development with very little male hormone (relative to a healthy adult male), if de noveau hairs form in male patients-----even ones on finasteride-----it would seem like hairs that formed with all the male horomone might have a chance of being much more immune to its effects.

The thing is, its not been formally tested yet. ALl they have to do is dermabrate a frontal balding area, apply wnt-protiens, and see what happens in x-amount of months, or needle the frontal scalp in 10 or 20 places and see what popls up in x-amount of months.


My take on this is that it might be best used in conjunction with a FUE transplant whereby the donor holes where hair has been needled out back in the donor area are topically treated with wnt-protiens. The patient would have to sleep upright with a neckbrace for a few weeks in all probability so the wounds could heal with no closing of them.....................just like the mouse-backs in the experiments. That was one of the stipulations for the de noveau growth. No closing the wounds.



Im suprised no one hasn't put just a few needle holes on a recessed temple, let them bleed and applied lithium chloride and seen what was up over the next 3-4 months. One guy was claiming his dad had a bunch of new hairs in a bald spot by razor blades and crushed garlic, so who knows. What is problematic for Follica, is that people can buy lithium chloride and home dermabrasion kits or little needles or syringes. IF this works, when the first guy who gets it done goes online and describes what "they" did to him, everybody could pretty much do it at home if they were willing to do it without anaesthesia. I guess that is where good ol' vodka might come it. Self-anasthesia. We will see when they head to clinical trials.........................they have every reason to keep the info on this pretty secret. As Ive said, even if they have success----if it comes in such a way that it could be easily replicated at home or by any old doctor, investors wont be happy. Anybody nurses' AID can run a dermabrator and any common dumbass can apply lithium chloride or a topical consisting of wnt protiens. How would follica get paid?

 

[elguapo]

I think the new hairs that might form from the wounded area will be susciptible to DHT, based on the idea that the original cells that helped grow both the original hairs in that area, and the new hairs in the same area after the wound. If the original hairs died due to DHT, I have a feeling the new ones will as well.

If that is the case, maybe the process will have to be:
1) scalp the area of the head that isn't balding.
2) remove the hair follicles from that area, and implant them into the area of the head that IS balding (on the top, for example).
3) wait for the wounded area to regrow new hairs, which should be unsusceptible to DHT. And voila! A full head of new hair.

I'm just talking out of my ***, of course. =D

 

[michael barry]

I agree with you elguapo. Thats about what I'd expect. I'd like to be wrong though. I want baldness cured. Men dont deserve to suffer if if they dont want to, and its time for science to treat baldness as if it were a "lifelong ACNE condition". There is no shame in aggressively going after acne in research, but research into baldness is for "vain men" and the like. They are both androgen related skin disorders, but one lasts alot of guys whole adult lives if they bald in their early twenties, and the other generally just during puberty. How fair is that?

 

[abcdefg]

I think science and specifically the FDA needs to treat cosmetic problems and treatments much more seriously. Have you seen all the aging anti wrinkle creams? Its ridiculous. How about regulating this crap or atleast let them apply to become fda approved so people have some idea whats worth using or not. Cosmetics are growing in popularity and the FDA or someone needs to monitor that crap.

Anyhow no one has watched hair made from these types of proteins before except these scientists and maybe select others. I dont think anyone knows if DHT effects that hair in the same way it effects regular hairs mainly because as far as I know no one knows exactly why dht effects certain hairs but not others. The hair might be immune to dht, resistant, or die under dht like normal hair. Until we do it no one will know. How the immune system will factor in to a wound that heals and forms hairs I dont think anyone knows that.

 

[abcdefg]

This wnt protein stuff might lead us to a better understanding of how hair forms. We need to find out why wnt proteins do this for wounds. Its possible the hair could be given pigment. I think restoring pigment to hair would orders of magnitude simpler then say cloning hair not to mention must less expensive. Realistically I see this happening before hair cloning and being much more reasonably priced. Science can figure out how to restore pigment much sooner then they will perfect hair cloning and make it affordable. I think some companies are already working on solving the grey hair issue.

 

[IBM]

anyone knows a natural way to feed the wound with wnt protein? With garlic?

 

[Jkkezh]

Michael Barry mentioned lithium chloride.

Garlic contains high amounts of lithium.
http://www.jpgmonline.com/article.asp?i ... ast=Jathar

Some sources mentioned that lithium also upregulates wnt, but I don't know about the differences between lithium and lithium chloride regarding wnt

 

[RaginDemon]

my body has a wound in his crown due to a car accident, he has a spot that spourts only white hair, but his crown is solid as hell.

 

[IBM]

That's interesting. Though 5mm will hurt too much. Not to say about garlic smell.

 

[michael barry]

jkkez,

That is interesting about garlic.....................................


I guess one could look up "lithium chloride" and see if its just lithium and chlorine. If it is...............I suppose a SMALL amount of chlorine mixed up with garlic and purified water might be a little homeade concoction to put on a wound.


If one could buy a sryinge, make about ten holes right in front of the hairline after washing with the garlic mixture for a week or so--------------and apply the garlic mixture and not close the wound......................for several days and let it bleed, scab and heal.......................who knows?????????????????



Costarialis mentioned that Klingman noted hair growth after dermabrasion for acne many years ago. Others shrugged if off, but either Klingman was honestly mistaken or right. He's no liar and has a great reputation.



Jkeezh, I'd love to be wrong, but I have a feeling the best way for this to be useful (if it works in humans, etc.) will be to make wounds in the donor area in conjunction with a FUE transplant, and hope hairs with donor genetics regrow there.
However man, I want baldness cured and defeated for all humanity----male and female. And will be happy for any solution. If standing on your head worked, I'd enthusiastically tell others about it.

 

[Jkkezh]

About the lithium content in garlic... while it contains high amounts compared to other vegetables (tobacco had highest content btw) it is still only a trace element. Not sure whether it would really be enough to have a significant effect. My best bet would be to get some of that lithium chloride the researchers used on the mice, shouldn't be too expensive

If I were a doctor I would be inclined to try this stuff myself on a small areaof the scalp, but I am no doctor and I don't trust my self with syringes/scalpels and lithium chloride


Can someone open the full PDF of this article, might be something interesting in there.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi- ... 0/ABSTRACT
Factors affecting the stimulation of hair growth during wound healing
Thomas S. Argyris, Bertie F. Argyris, Department of Zoology, Syracuse University, Syracuse, New York

 

[Armando Jose]

I found the cited article of Kligman in
JOURNAL OF INVESTIGATIVE DEMATOLOGY
http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v27/n1/pdf/jid195671a.pdf
Now we are talking about dermabrasion .....

From a thread on regrowth.com

http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums ... =1&t=18550
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum



Wounding can release cells from contact inhibition. So if hair growth is in any way inhibited by contact inhibition wounding might help in that way too. Maybe this is why the wound has to be open for quite some time to regrow hair, because if the wound closes contact inhibition could take over again. Wnt/beta-catenin also regulate contact inhibition in some way...

Btw: In the interview the researcher mentiones that treatment might include something like dermabrasion (basically sanding the skin, or with laser) in combination with another topical compound.

He also mentioned that there was one dermatologist Albert Klingmann who saw hair follicle regenesis in humans after dermabrasion treatment years/decades ago. Several others have seen these effects on rabbits decades ago as well....

Hmm so don't try this at home

 

[saintsfan92344]

I found the cited article of Kligman in
JOURNAL OF INVESTIGATIVE DEMATOLOGY
http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v27/n1/pdf/jid195671a.pdf
Now we are talking about dermabrasion .....

Alright just got back from the store got some liquid nitrogen and a 40 grit sanding disk, will report back with results:mrgreen: Im a DIY kind of guy, no pain cream either

Wow they took It down 2mm that's pretty deep, thats some serious wounding there

 

[Armando Jose]

it is a ancient study, ...., and a really serious wounding....