Possible Cortisol-related Side Effects Induced By Cb-03-01?

[monoid]

I've been using CB-03-01 at 20mg/day for a week now and I've developed loss of sleep (can only sleep 4~5 hours a day, wakes up tired). I wonder if this is an effect of raised cortisol levels in the night (I apply CB at 6PM each day), and if there are ways to suppress this side effect. I'd like to know what you guys think.

My history of side effects with various AAs:
finasteride 1mg ED: lowered libido; testicular pain; severe brain fog; insomnia; fatigue;
finasteride 0.25mg E3D: insomnia; brain fog, no sexual sides.
RU >40mg ED: insomnia; brain fog, no sexual sides;
RU 25mg ED: no side effects;
CB 20mg ED: insomnia (as of now, no brain fog), no sexual sides.

I'd like to find a side-effect-free AA dosage to maintain my hair.

P.S. I'm also using triamcinolone acetonide ointment to treat eczema/contact dermatitis. This is also a corticosteroid so probably I'm experiencing a type of drug-induced higher level of cortisol by the synergy of triamcinolone and CB?

 

[whatevr]

At the risk of stating the obvious, is it an option for you to apply it in the morning? Cortisol is supposed to be low in the afternoon - it is highest in the morning so that is probably when you would want to apply it.

That said, I am not sure what amount of CB metabolizes to cortisol and how significant that amount is in relation to physiological levels.

Perhaps get a blood test and find out.

 

[WangMQ]

So sorry to hear that monoid.

You seems to be very sensitive to the sleep problems of AAs. So am I.

High cortisol can definitely cause sleep problems. It also fluctuates a lot during the day so when you use a drug or anything interfering with it (like cafe and tea) can largely affect its level. Keep that in mind if you want to do a blood test.

Have you ever tried applying CB in the morning? And pausing your topical corticosteroid for at least a week to evaluate?

This is bad news. I thought CB is the one and only side free AA.

Anyone else experiencing this?

 

[monoid]

At the risk of stating the obvious, is it an option for you to apply it in the morning? Cortisol is supposed to be low in the afternoon - it is highest in the morning so that is probably when you would want to apply it.

That said, I am not sure what amount of CB metabolizes to cortisol and how significant that amount is in relation to physiological levels.

Perhaps get a blood test and find out.

Applying a solution with 50%PG wouldn't make your hair look good... it's too oily.

So sorry to hear that monoid.

You seems to be very sensitive to the sleep problems of AAs. So am I.

High cortisol can definitely cause sleep problems. It also fluctuates a lot during the day so when you use a drug or anything interfering with it (like cafe and tea) can largely affect its level. Keep that in mind if you want to do a blood test.

Have you ever tried applying CB in the morning? And pausing your topical corticosteroid for at least a week to evaluate?

This is bad news. I thought CB is the one and only side free AA.

Anyone else experiencing this?

I'm going to pause the topical corticosteroid to see if the problem resolves.

 

[hilbert]

I've been using CB-03-01 at 20mg/day for a week now and I've developed loss of sleep (can only sleep 4~5 hours a day, wakes up tired). I wonder if this is an effect of raised cortisol levels in the night (I apply CB at 6PM each day), and if there are ways to suppress this side effect. I'd like to know what you guys think.

My history of side effects with various AAs:
finasteride 1mg ED: lowered libido; testicular pain; severe brain fog; insomnia; fatigue;
finasteride 0.25mg E3D: insomnia; brain fog, no sexual sides.
RU >40mg ED: insomnia; brain fog, no sexual sides;
RU 25mg ED: no side effects;
CB 20mg ED: insomnia (as of now, no brain fog), no sexual sides.

I'd like to find a side-effect-free AA dosage to maintain my hair.

P.S. I'm also using triamcinolone acetonide ointment to treat eczema/contact dermatitis. This is also a corticosteroid so probably I'm experiencing a type of drug-induced higher level of cortisol by the synergy of triamcinolone and CB?

it seems you're getting insomnia with a wide range of meds, all with different mechanisms of action.
so, it is well possible that cortisol gives you insomnia, but the problem is: are your cortisol levels within ranges?
if they're not, then CB might be guilty; if they are, then you're too sensitive to something.

I'm putting 50mg every night before going to bed, and no sleep issues so far.
I was concerned about cortisol, too, and I've got a blood test to check; it was in the normal range, in spite of my condition of almost permanent stress (and the CB that I applied 8-10 hrs before the test).

 

[WangMQ]

I did a search and found two posts on HLH also reporting sleep disorders.

There were also reports about heart and skin problems.

Damn. I'm getting hopeless now. It's not that I expect a drug to be completely safe for everyone, but this is just revealing to us that even a drug like CB, which is topical, doesn't mess with androgen levels, gets fast metabolized, and has seemingly harmless metabolite can seriously fxxk people up.

I had fear from these experimental drugs in the first place. Maybe it's time to give up messing my hormones and prepare for a shaved head...

 

[hilbert]

I did a search and found two posts on HLH also reporting sleep disorders.

There were also reports about heart and skin problems.

Damn. I'm getting hopeless now. It's not that I expect a drug to be completely safe for everyone, but this is just revealing to us that even a drug like CB, which is topical, doesn't mess with androgen levels, gets fast metabolized, and has seemingly harmless metabolite can seriously fxxk people up.

I had fear from these experimental drugs in the first place. Maybe it's time to give up messing my hormones and prepare for a shaved head...

guys, stop panicking. It's just someone reporting sleep problems and, even if that is related to a specific drugs, this is statistically irrelevant.
the guy with heart problems was not related to the drug afaik.
forums require strong nerves; if you don't have it, stay on fda-approved meds, e.g. finasteride :-D

 

[WangMQ]

guys, stop panicking. It's just someone reporting sleep problems and, even if that is related to a specific drugs, this is statistically irrelevant.
the guy with heart problems was not related to the drug afaik.
forums require strong nerves; if you don't have it, stay on fda-approved meds, e.g. finasteride :-D

My fear was due to my personal experiences with AA drugs. My side history is quite similar to OP's. (Being super sensitive to sleep problems especially). Also to investigate into, obtain and trial these experimentals takes a lot. You're right it requires strong nerves.

My disappointment also came from the fact that CB previously existed as a "clean" drug in my head. As we all know experimentals have no guarantee regarding your health since there's not enough trials. When you look at finasteride, everyone knows what to expect even though it might really suck. But when we're doing experimentals, we have no idea how far the sides might go. And I was scared as hell when I developed chest/heart pain with RU.

Anyway sorry for being emotional. As you can imagine I'm under heavy stress at the moment. I don't mean to add to the pessimism. We still need to move on (with caution).

 

[hilbert]

My fear was due to my personal experiences with AA drugs. My side history is quite similar to OP's. (Being super sensitive to sleep problems especially). Also to investigate into, obtain and trial these experimentals takes a lot. You're right it requires strong nerves.

My disappointment also came from the fact that CB previously existed as a "clean" drug in my head. As we all know experimentals have no guarantee regarding your health since there's not enough trials. When you look at finasteride, everyone knows what to expect even though it might really suck. But when we're doing experimentals, we have no idea how far the sides might go. And I was scared as hell when I developed chest/heart pain with RU.

Anyway sorry for being emotional. As you can imagine I'm under heavy stress at the moment. I don't mean to add to the pessimism. We still need to move on (with caution).

I understand you're being emotional, we're all like that at moments, in our shitty condition.
don't worry, and try to take decisions with a cold and rational mind... as much as possible.

btw, if that help: CB is in phase 3 for Winlevi, acne. 1%, but face skin is much thinner than scalp skin, so it's enough CB.
Safety should not be a concern in that case.

 

[WangMQ]

Read into more posts about CB recently.

A few users including el_dutarino were reporting sexual sides from it (though less severe than finasteride or RU). The sides were dose dependent. Doesn't seem like coincidence.

@hilbert As I remember you posted a study about CB, which indicates it takes 6 hours for human body to metabolize it in blood. I believe that's what causes these sides for certain people.

I understand that CB is the safest AA we currently have. But I've become convinced that it CAN still cause sides.

How are things going for you monoid? Looking forward to your updates.

 

[hilbert]

Read into more posts about CB recently.

A few users including el_dutarino were reporting sexual sides from it (though less severe than finasteride or RU). The sides were dose dependent. Doesn't seem like coincidence.

@hilbert As I remember you posted a study about CB, which indicates it takes 6 hours for human body to metabolize it in blood. I believe that's what causes these sides for certain people.

I understand that CB is the safest AA we currently have. But I've become convinced that it CAN still cause sides.

How are things going for you monoid? Looking forward to your updates.

this is exactly why fora are not the best place to conduct clinical trials
we're all emotional and inaccurate.

In this particular case:

Read into more posts about CB recently.
@hilbert As I remember you posted a study about CB, which indicates it takes 6 hours for human body to metabolize it in blood. I believe that's what causes these sides for certain people.

not at all, read that cosmo paper. It was just in-vitro blood. Afaik, things would be quite different if you inject it into live blood (more biological processes, more acid environment), and even more different if you drop it on the scalp (most of the CB would degrade while it makes its way through the skin and dermis). Different = fast degradation.
Talking to the lab guy for the NMR tests, I've come to the idea that CB is quite a delicate molecule when not in powder form or when entering the human body.
My concern is rather the opposite: to avoid its degradation before it binds to my ARs.

Read into more posts about CB recently.
A few users including el_dutarino were reporting sexual sides from it (though less severe than finasteride or RU). The sides were dose dependent. Doesn't seem like coincidence.

el_dut, which I respect for its long history of therapies and reporting, also stated that he could feel the difference on hair caliber (!!) after some weeks on/off CB alone vs. CB+minoxidil.
Caliber. Not even hair count (which could be explained in terms of unrelated effluvium). Caliber takes months on a wrong med to be reduced. Even if you stop finasteride, it takes time before noticing a vertical drop, and the first worsening is due to ketogen of visible hair shafts. It takes longer for a miniaturizing follicle to go into anagen again. So, you would notice decreasing calibers much later than the other way around.

Still, this is what he reported, and I guess in total good faith.

Again: imho we're all emotional and unable of a clear mind and objectivity, when it comes to our own hair and (sexual) sides.

 

[WangMQ]

this is exactly why fora are not the best place to conduct clinical trials
we're all emotional and inaccurate.

In this particular case:


not at all, read that cosmo paper. It was just in-vitro blood. Afaik, things would be quite different if you inject it into live blood (more biological processes, more acid environment), and even more different if you drop it on the scalp (most of the CB would degrade while it makes its way through the skin and dermis). Different = fast degradation.
Talking to the lab guy for the NMR tests, I've come to the idea that CB is quite a delicate molecule when not in powder form or when entering the human body.
My concern is rather the opposite: to avoid its degradation before it binds to my ARs.



el_dut, which I respect for its long history of therapies and reporting, also stated that he could feel the difference on hair caliber (!!) after some weeks on/off CB alone vs. CB+minoxidil.
Caliber. Not even hair count (which could be explained in terms of unrelated effluvium). Caliber takes months on a wrong med to be reduced. Even if you stop finasteride, it takes time before noticing a vertical drop, and the first worsening is due to ketogen of visible hair shafts. It takes longer for a miniaturizing follicle to go into anagen again. So, you would notice decreasing calibers much later than the other way around.

Still, this is what he reported, and I guess in total good faith.

Again: imho we're all emotional and unable of a clear mind and objectivity, when it comes to our own hair and (sexual) sides.

hilbert, I saw your post in the original thread too. I totally agree that hair shaft caliber is nearly impossible to be changed within such a short period of time, and that el_dut's report was more due to a cosmetic effect. But as for the sexual sides, I think it's less likely to be subjective. Loss of morning wood is less likely to come from our head (it surely is possible, but that's usually when you're under heavy anxiety or depression, which doesn't seem to be the case for el_dut)

But again, my worry was more based on that paper you posted. (for anyone interested it's here: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2014/md/c4md00049h)

I read it again. Didn't find where it mentioned the metabolism was in vitro or in vivo. How did you come to the judgement? Was it because it mentioned "incubation in plasma"? BTW the paper was useful.

(Well, on second thought it's indeed not likely for them to test this incubation with human plasma in vivo...Hopefully you're right about everything!)

And still, I'd prefer to keep very cautious about CB's effect on HPA axis!

 

[hilbert]

agree we should keep an on the hpa axis. i recall in their tests 3 out of 42 patients were higher, close to the range margins.
nevertheless, for some reason i fear finasteride more than cb. (neurosteroidal harm by finasteride).
we'll see soon with winlevi.

 

[Swoop]

agree we should keep an on the hpa axis. i recall in their tests 3 out of 42 patients were higher, close to the range margins.
nevertheless, for some reason i fear finasteride more than cb. (neurosteroidal harm by finasteride).
we'll see soon with winlevi.

That was with a 1% concentration though, right?

 

[hilbert]

That was with a 1% concentration though, right?

yes, but in an oily cream on a thinner skin. it should be comparable then, aint it?

 

[Swoop]

yes, but in an oily cream on a thinner skin. it should be comparable then, aint it?

No clue Hilbert. I guess the best way is to go and check blood values baseline and after.

 

[hilbert]

No clue Hilbert. I guess the best way is to go and check blood values baseline and after.

that's what I did, and my cortisol was within ranges. Not a full reassurance though: one should sample its levels everyday for a while.
I'll try to rest with their Winlevi studies. It's there I've read the face skin thickness is 1/5 of the scalp skin.
Anyway, afaik cortexolone does not necessarily convert into cortisol.

And, not treating my hairloss or treating it with something I consider harmful (e.g. finasteride) would bring me more stress, and much more cortisol.
I did some reading, and one can really destroy his HPA axis just with his brain and pituitary gland

 

[WangMQ]

that's what I did, and my cortisol was within ranges. Not a full reassurance though: one should sample its levels everyday for a while.
I'll try to rest with their Winlevi studies. It's there I've read the face skin thickness is 1/5 of the scalp skin.
Anyway, afaik cortexolone does not necessarily convert into cortisol.

And, not treating my hairloss or treating it with something I consider harmful (e.g. finasteride) would bring me more stress, and much more cortisol.
I did some reading, and one can really destroy his HPA axis just with his brain and pituitary gland

There're indeed too many things that can mess your cortisol level up. Drinking coffee or tea on a daily basis leads to that too!

For the facial skin, the problem is that our scalp has way more circulation than facial skin...

Chronic stress to HPA axis might lead to fatigue. I'm really concerned with that. My energy level is already like sxxt on finasteride.

 

[hilbert]

There're indeed too many things that can mess your cortisol level up. Drinking coffee or tea on a daily basis leads to that too!

For the facial skin, the problem is that our scalp has way more circulation than facial skin...

Chronic stress to HPA axis might lead to fatigue. I'm really concerned with that. My energy level is already like sxxt on finasteride.

yes, under a thicker epidermis.

so you see: a lot of threats for our poor hpa axis.. including the stress that would kill me if i'm not on cb

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

Won't cortisol make you fat?