Potential explanation for 'PFS'

Weezert

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I should start by stating that I am a Biology Graduate, and I have no vested interest in the following theory I'm about to present.

I have read a lot of things about finasteride. Some of them good, some of them bad, some of them just plain ridiculous.

I went on the alarmist website 'Propeciahelp', and there is no doubt in my mind that the plight of a small subset of men they present is a serious one, but I must say they do themselves no favours with the way they present things. If you want to be taken seriously by the scientific community, don't use words like 'devastating effect' to describe something. I suppose that's easy for me to say though saying as I don't suffer PFS. Anyway, onto my theory about PFS.

We all know that within Homo Sapiens there is a lot of genetic variation. This genetic variation has many far reaching effects, such as determining your colour, creed, eye colour, baldness, infertility etc. But what a lot of people don't realise is that certain people will respond different to drugs than others based upon their genes too. It has sparked a whole new field which is only really starting to take off now, Pharmacogenomics.

While reading around finasteride I stumbled accross this study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21386657). It showed that finasteride had an effect on a mutant (but functional) form of the androgen receptor in cultured cells IN VITRO above and beyond what you would expect from inhibition of DHT alone. They went on to conclude that this AR, which contained a point mutation (T877A) could be competitively inhibited by finasteride, which could actually act directly at this AR and prevent DHT from binding.

One could perhaps see a situation where, in a population, there is a certain percentage of people who have a mutant form of the AR receptor susceptible to this type of inhibition. The trouble arises because if it blocks the AR, it would not just block DHT, it would block T too. This would of course lead to side effects the likes of which are seen with oral spironolactone treatment (a direct inhibitor of the AR). This would explain some of the stories of testicular hypotrophy and other feminizing effects sometimes reported by people claiming to have so-called 'PFS'.

This would go hand in hand with the fact that, for the majority of people, finasteride treatment is an effective hair-loss weapon. It would also perhaps explain why some people appear to have very serious complications from it. Further research into those people (unfortunately only people with obvious physical effects i.e. things that are measurable like loss of testicle size etc.) would perhaps lead to established exactly what genotype of person is susceptible to this. This would lead to improving the outcomes for everyone with finasteride. Those without risk could take it without having to worry about PFS, and those who are susceptible would have to move on from the idea of finasteride.

Of course, this is just a theory, and it should NOT be taken as fact as it has NOT been scientifically tested or proven, and there are zero results indicating that this is the case.

What are your thoughts?
 
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Timi

Guest
all Drugs sh*t

look the side effects from Bloodpressure Drugs
the Horror!

minoxidil makes Diabetis Oraly!
Topic????

i was 14 Years Healthy with finasteride
than minoxidil and Heartproblems-than Bloodpressuredrugs
and i so ill as never bevor!



Timi
 

Weezert

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Timi, although I appreciate that you have a problem, not all drugs are bad. For the most part they are safe, effective, and far far better than living with the diseases they treat.

Finasteride too is a safe medication, it wouldn't be on the market if it wasn't.
 

Wuffer

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Interesting theory. The only issue I have with it is the common scenario for PFS sufferers is that symptoms get exponentially worse a few weeks after discontinuing medication. In many cases I’ve actually read, side effects are mild or nonexistent while taking Finasteride, but after discontinuation is where things get really bad. You seem to be suggesting it’s a cumulative effect, and if that were the case, this ‘crash’ people describe wouldn’t be occurring.

I am strongly of the mind that some (possibly many) of the individuals suffering from persistent symptoms are experiencing them for psychosomatic reasons, either fully or in part. I believe also that this is the reason side effects and experiences vary so dramatically. This is unfortunate, because this makes it extremely difficult to identify trends that could lead towards a solution.

I think Propeciahelp as a group has shot themselves in the foot. Their campaigning methods include scare tactics, which I believe can lead some men down a very dark path. This may make the cause seem more legitimate in terms of pure numbers, which is great for litigation, but ultimately does a disservice to the individuals suffering and seeking a viable treatment.

It’s definitely a complicated subject. I understand there is a study occurring in Italy that is taking a strong scientific approach to these issues. Has anybody been keeping an eye on this and can provide and updates?
 

Weezert

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Yeah I had thought about the fact that some describe it occurring afterwards, but i have seen people on propecia help saying their testis shrank during treatment etc.

I agree whole-heartedly with your opinion on their website. It is really the worst example of scare-mongering, and they seem to latch onto anything as 'proof' no matter how tenuous the evidence is, a classic example being that study where some doctor interviewed exclusively people who contacted him claiming to suffer PFS, and then applied statistical analyses to it. This kind of selection bias renders anything you could learn from that type of study useless, but they laud it on their website as 'evidence'.

I also agree that for many it is psychosomatic, as hard as that is for some people to accept. People who have taken it for 2 days and complain of persistent sides are highly unlikely to be actually experiencing anything. I do believe however, that there is a subset of men for whom it is real.
 
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Timi

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Weezert said:
Timi, although I appreciate that you have a problem, not all drugs are bad. For the most part they are safe, effective, and far far better than living with the diseases they treat.

Finasteride too is a safe medication, it wouldn't be on the market if it wasn't.

i am not sure

i have from all Drugs big side effects,swelling and swelling and breathing

comes it from 14Years finasteride? my body spins?
or from minoxidil?

i am Allergic from Allergic Drugs-i am Allergic from Bloodpressure Drugs
i am Allergic from finasteride-I am Allergic from minoxidil and and and....

my Head is so big and swollen,my Eyes burning-my Body itsching and burns

i had No Symptomes from this 14Years finasteride
have make finasteride my Body so Allergic?
or minoxidil?

why now
 

Chris87

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I am no expert on this stuff at all..just using my reasoning here... If this were true, then gyno wouldnt be a symptom in PFS sufferers right? Because if it was shutting down production of T..there wouldnt be extra T to convert to estrogen and create gyno.

I wonder if side effects of finasteride could be avoided, and the chance of PFS could be avoided...if you supplemented T (or boosted it naturally somehow?) in the people with this mutation.
 

Fanjeera

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T goes to estradiol through a different mechanism. This theory explains exactly, why finasteride causes gyno – your T becomes functionless.
But anyway, why long after discontinuing? I understand the effect when you're taking the drug, but it should resolve after you stop taking it. Of course, finasteride is a steroid and doesn't leave the body very easily, but it should be out after a few years. Especially if you have taken the stuff for only a few days.
I think that finasteride destroys cells that are dependent or metabolites that 5ar2 induces. It's been proven that prostate cells die, if they don't get DHT. 5ar2 plays a role in the brain and other parts of body too. Perhaps there is more cell death than we imagine? My theory is, of course, that the cells won't start to proliferate again, if the damage is done. The damage is permanent. Are prostate epithelial cells able to come back? Or cells altogether?
 
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