Propecia and birth defects warning. What do you make of this

[beenthere]

"Propecia may cause birth defects in an unborn child if a broken pill is touched by a pregnant woman"

This is one of the warnings Merck lists. This is a pretty severe side effect. All a woman has to do is touch a broken pill and her unborn child may become permanently disformed?

Based on this warning alone, how can anyone deny the powers of this drug. If it can do this to a woman, what about a many who ingests an entire pill over the course of many years?

 

[Mew]

However, once puberty is completed there are no negative consequences from hindering DHT.

lol... this is getting ridiculous now.

Of course there can be negative consequences to inhibiting DHT, the most potent male androgen, because DHT does more than just make you lose hair (ie, mediating nitric oxide release), and 5AR is responsible for far more than just converting T to DHT (ie neurosteroid synthesis in the brain). We've been over this a million times and you still refuse to acknowledge these facts, which have been documented in published research articles.

Why do you think those men who get sides from Finasteride get them? Here's a hint: a big part of it has to do with very low DHT levels. Saying DHT serves "no role after puberty" just shows your lack of education on the purpose and function of hormones.

 

[barcafan]

However, once puberty is completed there are no negative consequences from hindering DHT.

lol... of course there can be negative consequences. DHT does more than just make you lose hair, and 5AR is responsible for far more than just converting T to DHT.

I hate hearing that trash too.

The guy talks like he actually know's what he's saying. He's definitely not parroting what's been shoved down his throat by the industry which really looks after our well being.

 

[amsch]

Take a look at this- viewtopic.php?f=61&t=53109

Wow, posting a link to a topic called "Official No Sides from finasteride Thread". Now take a look at the "Dealing with side effects" forum... pff think about it.

 

[Mew]

the FDA clinical trials, concluded that finasteride only caused side effects in the 2% minority of users, and that the side effects subsided after treatment was discontinued.

That was back in 97, and conspiracy theories aside, no doubt the FDA "looked the other way" when it came to Merck's safety claims on their product, in order to get it approved. The drug companies have a vested interested in the FDA, and just because something is "FDA approved" doesn't necessarily mean it's safe. Remember Vioxx? Phen-Phen? Drugs are being pulled from the market all the time after their negative sides comes to light over time. Since 97, the Swedish Medical Products Agency (Swedish equivalent of the FDA) has found Finasteride can cause permanent erectile dysfunction.

viewtopic.php?p=489095#p489095

Nice try on attempting to divert the topic away from the main issue, which is you claiming that reducing DHT causes absolutely no problems. That's already been found to be false in published scientific articles. Here's some more discussion on the above:

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=51622&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=swedish+medical

As for your pseudohermaphrodite argument, they were born that way and thus are likely hard wired differently at the genetic level as a result.

That's a far cry from taking a normal male and then transforming his hormonal profile to match that of a 5AR2 deficient pseudohermaphrodite.

If we were meant to not have DHT, none of us would have it and those that DID, would be considered the "exceptions". But considering it's the other way around, where 99.9% of the world's population has a functional 5AR2 enzyme, that argument is completely asinine.

It's funny how you, Bryan and others hold onto the "pseudohermaphrodites" as some testament to Finasteride's safety, when they are in fact the exception to the rule. Maybe have a read through this as well, Alex makes some very good points against this "argument".

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... word1=alex

 

[amsch]

Viox and phen phen, WERE REMOVED FROM THE MARKET! If Finasteride is so dangerous why has it not also been removed from the market? Why are the millions of finasteride users worldwide not demanding and petioning for finasterides removal? Why are the vast majority of finasteride users not reporting these horrible side effects.... I will tell you why, because side effects only occur in a minuscule proportion of users, All prescription drugs cary a risk of side effects finasteride is no exception, but compared to the majority of RX drugs finasterides occurence of side effects are rare.

Finfighter, just compare it with minoxidil. Usually about 2-3% get sides. And you got 3 major sides.

 

[Bryan]

"Propecia may cause birth defects in an unborn child if a broken pill is touched by a pregnant woman"

This is one of the warnings Merck lists. This is a pretty severe side effect. All a woman has to do is touch a broken pill and her unborn child may become permanently disformed?

I think that's a pretty silly thing for Merck to say, and it has a lot more to do with legal CYA than a real medical risk. NO WOMAN WILL CAUSE BIRTH DEFECTS BY TOUCHING A BROKEN PROPECIA PILL. Period. In fact, I've even read that if a pregnant woman actually SWALLOWS a Propecia pill one single time (not just touch it), there probably won't be any harm to the unborn child. Of course, that's not something she would want to do on a regular basis.

 

[Bryan]

As for your pseudohermaphrodite argument, they were born that way and thus are likely hard wired differently at the genetic level as a result.

"Hard wired differently at the genetic level"? HUH?? Yeah, they're definitely hard wired differently, all right: they don't make 5a-reductase type II. That's their ONLY genetic difference.

That's a far cry from taking a normal male and then transforming his hormonal profile to match that of a 5AR2 deficient pseudohermaphrodite.

I don't think it's a "far cry" at all.

It's funny how you, Bryan and others hold onto the "pseudohermaphrodites" as some testament to Finasteride's safety, when they are in fact the exception to the rule. Maybe have a read through this as well, Alex makes some very good points against this "argument".

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... word1=alex

I think anybody who reads that thread carefully will see that Alex's response to that argument was very very weak. I don't think he had even considered the evidence of the pseudohermaphrodites beforehand, so when I and others confronted him with it, all he could do was try to muster up a silly ad hoc explanation for it. That's bad science. REALLY bad science.

 

[Cassin]

we would have already heard of problems by now instead of speculating on a hair loss forum.

I know people who have had kids while on finasteride. In fact one guy has 3 boys.

 

[barcafan]

It's not going to happen to everyone but you damn well better f*****g pray you're not in the 2-5%

 

[cuebald]

Some people on this board are so terrified of their "manhood" suddenly disappearing it borders on hysteria. People who worry this much over a 5ar II inhibitor can't have that strong a "maleness" in the first place.
They should just accept that, and become a placid, unthreatening baldie leaving the rest of us in peace.

 

[amsch]

I just can't believe that I'm in the 0,1% of finasteride users who got gyno. I simply can't.

 

[barcafan]

You make it sound like if you are in the 2% your dick will fall off, or something, give me a break. I don't know why you get off on trying to spook people.

dick wont fall off, that's ridiculous.

The fact remains that there are real live DOCTORS who specialize in hormone modulation that tell ADULT MEN they'd be f*****g CRAZY to go on finasteride.

If i recall correctly you got serious enough sides from minoxidil to stop using it, what if i said you're nuts and imagining it and should give your body time to 'adjust'.


Nobody gets off on trying to spook anybody, maybe that's the way YOUR mind would work, but it isn't the way mine does. People need to know that potential side effects DO EXIST and can be very serious, saying sh*t like 'oh dont worry you dont need dht post puberty' is total misinformation and harmful.

 

[beenthere]

I think the problem is that you people are too afraid to admit that your precious propecia is a dangerous drug that can have serious side effects. Do you really think that thousands of men would be going online and pretend that they have ED and loss of libido after stopping propecia?

The truth is that Propecia is a hormone altering drug that blocks 5-ar, an enzyme that the medical community does not completly understand what its complete effects on the body are.

Many men have complained about side effects from ED, memory loss, and gyno from this drug. If some men can have such severe side effects how can you be certain that you don't or will never have any side effects?

I think that those of you who continue to take Propecia know that these side effects are real but are in denial. And although you may not have side effects from Propecia (that you know of) you have some other serious other issues that allow you to take a drug for cosmetic reasons that may or may not be very damaging to your health..

 

[Mew]

Viox and phen phen, WERE REMOVED FROM THE MARKET! If Finasteride is so dangerous why has it not also been removed from the market?

In time, that's a question only the FDA and lawyers can answer, not me. Maybe it won't be removed from the market; maybe labelling changes about undisclosed mechanisms of action and potential irreversible side effects are all that is required. But plenty of drugs HAVE BEEN APPROVED, only to be removed from the market down the road -- and Finasteride is not exempt from such possibilities.

Why are the millions of finasteride users worldwide not demanding and petioning for finasterides removal?

You and I wouldn't know even if they were, because its an embarrassing problem to be left impotent by a drug and to drum up media frenzy around such a thing, putting your face out there with such a humiliating condition... so many men choose to suffer in silence, or do not go public about things. In addition, most likely men whose lives have been damaged by the medication seek out guidance and "petitioning" via their own doctors and FDA adverse reaction reports -- not through the media, so you and I wouldn't know any different unless there was a specific, published report done on this "problem". Granted, some media attention has been developing on the issue (ie, Swedish TV reports), and as more men take this drug and have problems from it, there will likely be more.

"Hard wired differently at the genetic level"? HUH?? Yeah, they're definitely hard wired differently, all right: they don't make 5a-reductase type II. That's their ONLY genetic difference.

You and I both know that's what I was referring to, Bryan! That may be their "only" genetic difference, but as I explained, its a major one. 5AR2 is a critical enzyme responsible for a variety of hormonal/neurosteroid pathways, not just T to DHT... and if people actually did their research, they'd realize this. Not having a functional 5AR2 enzyme is not some "trivial" matter.

That's a far cry from taking a normal male and then transforming his hormonal profile to match that of a 5AR2 deficient pseudohermaphrodite.


I don't think it's a "far cry" at all.

When 99.9% of the world's population has a functional 5AR2 enzyme, you cannot say that transforming such people's hormonal profile to match that of a genetically 5AR2-deficient pseudohermaphrodite is normal -- it's anything but. If we weren't meant to have functional 5AR2 enzymes, we wouldn't -- the pseudohermaphrodites are the EXCEPTION to the rule -- "freaks" of nature, mutations -- not THE rule.

The medical community has a complete understanding of A5R2

The medical community is still trying to figure out how MANY processes in the body works, to say they have a "complete" understanding of 5AR2 is asinine. They do not have a "complete" understanding of 5AR2 at all and are in fact discovering new things they never knew about the enzyme and its various functions as time goes on.

I believe that the DHT levels during/post finasteride are safe, this is the consensus among the vast majority of medical profesionals and the FDA, if it were not Finasteride would have been pulled off the market by now.

Just because you believe something doesn't make it true. As for being pulled from the market, see previous comments.

there are tens of millions of men worldwide who take finasteride without side effects

Tens of millions eh? Where'd you pull that stat from?

Straight from Merck: http://www.propecia.co.nz/safety.asp

"Worldwide, more than 2 million men have taken PROPECIA".

Granted it says "more than 2 million", but it certainly doesn't say "tens of millions", either.


Finally, as for comments that DHT has no use in the human male after puberty:

http://www.biolreprod.org/content/72/4/851.full

"Testosterone, the most abundantly produced androgen, is reduced by 5?-reductase to the more potent dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT mediates many of the actions ascribed to androgens, including the differentiation of the male external genitalia and prostate during fetal development, virilization at puberty, and male sexual and aggressive behavior [1–3]. "


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... s=19090946

"Sexual AEs are reported in clinical trials at rates of 2.1% to 38%. The most common sexual AE is ED, followed by EjD and decreased libido. These effects occur early in therapy and attenuate over time. A proposed mechanism for sexual dysfunction involves decreased nitric oxide synthase activity due to decreased dihydrotestosterone. "

 

[barcafan]

but mew, i have heard from various anonymous sources on internet forum boards that dht simply becomes irrelevant post puberty and that our bodies are (mistakenly) producing it during adulthood! I for one welcome these airtight theories and subscribe to their creators newsletter.

 

[Bryan]

That's a far cry from taking a normal male and then transforming his hormonal profile to match that of a 5AR2 deficient pseudohermaphrodite.


I don't think it's a "far cry" at all.

When 99.9% of the world's population has a functional 5AR2 enzyme, you cannot say that transforming such people's hormonal profile to match that of a genetically 5AR2-deficient pseudohermaphrodite is normal -- it's anything but. If we weren't meant to have functional 5AR2 enzymes, we wouldn't -- the pseudohermaphrodites are the EXCEPTION to the rule -- "freaks" of nature, mutations -- not THE rule.

And yet you're unable to explain one HUGE fact: aside from their grossly altered early sexual development, the pseudohermaphrodites appear to be healthy individuals throughout their lives. In fact, they may well be even MORE healthy than you and I, because they evidently never develop BPH or prostate cancer! :shock:

Here's another interesting little tidbit for you to think about: the Dominican Republic isn't the only place where this form of "pseudohermaphroditism" has arisen. It's also happened in a few other places, like Turkey (if I recall correctly) and New Guinea. But what's interesting is that as far as medical science knows, there's never been a spontaneous development of men (or women) who are deficient in the type 1 5a-reductase enzyme. A very distinct possibility, of course, is that a genetic mutation in the gene that produces that specific enzyme could well be LETHAL. But a defect in the gene that produces the type 2 enzyme is known to be FAR from lethal, of course. In fact, it very well may actually favor longevity!