Propecia and gyno

[jd_uk]

How does this occur? As in, do people carry on taking propecia in the hope that the gyno will subside causing it to become permanent? Or can it just happen instantly?

 

[Captain Hook]

Gynaecomastia occurs when there is an abnormal increase in either prolactin or estradiol, in regards to 5ARIs, the latter mechanism is the culprit here. The former usually is the case when gynaecomastia arises as a side effect from antipsychotic medications.

Take a look at this chart: http://i.gyazo.com/dbbc762b031e11387805edd0605aedf1.png

Average serum estradiol, which increases when excess free testosterone is aromatised, never rises above what is considered the normal reference range for men. Even the outliers (which were also present in the placebo group!) likely wouldn't produce any abnormal pathological changes. Look at this study, (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7614406), it even shows normal, healthy, fertile men can have serum estradiol levels as high as 82 pg/mL (ng/L). Someone would have to have a predisposition for estrogenic side effects such as gynaecomastia to occur (read: abnormally high serum estradiol levels), hence the low incidence rate. This is why I had a comprehensive male hormone panel performed before I started any treatments, everything came back within their normal reference ranges.

If people did this they would be able to take measures to lower their serum estradiol if it was already high as a prophylactic so they don't get gynaecomastia while on 5ARI therapy. The only way to do this outside of taking an aromatase inhibitor is to lower your body fat percentage to a healthy level (less than 20%, ideally 6-15%) and exercise regularly (3-5x per week).

Aromatase enzymes are synthesised in adipose tissue, 75% of estradiol is aromatised from testosterone in fat cells, the remaining 25% in the testes and adrenal glands. People should really be doing everything in their power to maintain a healthy body fat percentage to ensure the lowest propensity for estrogenic side effects such as gynaecomastia. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3504068 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/234975)

Regular exercise prevents the overproduction of estrogen and those who do exercise regularly tend to have lower estrogen levels compared to their sedentary counterparts (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23652373).

I've read that mild cases of gynaecomastia can resolve spontaneously. Gynaecomastia usually isn't something that happens instantly, pain or tenderness in the breasts/nipples usually occurs first and that should obviously be a sign that something is awry. As the Avodart adverts go, "tell your doctor if you have liver disease, rarely sexual side effects, swelling or tenderness of the breasts can occur"

 

[Koga]

@Captain Hook: Question is, the lower your body fat, the more you're risking your hair? Cause I believe these hormones interplay with each other, right? Lower estradiol, means higher T, thus higher DHT, thus more likely to suffer hair loss. Y/N ?

 

[Captain Hook]

@Captain Hook: Question is, the lower your body fat, the more you're risking your hair? Cause I believe these hormones interplay with each other, right? Lower estradiol, means higher T, thus higher DHT, thus more likely to suffer hair loss. Y/N ?

To the best of my knowledge serum DHT and hair loss aren't correlated. It all has to do with the individual's level of 5AR activity in the scalp.

By regular exercise your referring to weight lifting, am I correct? Because high aerobic activity can sometimes slightly lower testosterone, but not really make much of a difference (and help circulation).

Exercise seems to help my libido (weight lifting).

I have small "man boobs", which I'm definitely trying to get rid off. Should I do more shoulder presses/reps?

Spot reduction doesn't really work, if you want to get rid of "man boobs" then do cardio and reduce your calorie intake by 300-500 below your maintenance level.

 

[Koga]

To the best of my knowledge serum DHT and hair loss aren't correlated. It all has to do with the individual's level of 5AR activity in the scalp.

Agree. But if someone's predisposed for hair loss, won't higher serum DHT aggravate things? I mean, e.g. T value 100 => 70% blocked by 5AR inhibitor (finasteride) => net result: serum DHT 30. But when you're ripped / have lower body fat, e.g. T value 200 => 70% blocked by 5AR inhibitor (finasteride) => net result: serum DHT 60, thus more hair loss?

 

[Captain Hook]

Agree. But if someone's predisposed for hair loss, won't higher serum DHT aggravate things? I mean, e.g. T value 100 => 70% blocked by 5AR inhibitor (finasteride) => net result: serum DHT 30. But when you're ripped / have lower body fat, e.g. T value 200 => 70% blocked by 5AR inhibitor (finasteride) => net result: serum DHT 60, thus more hair loss?

In theory it still shouldn't, otherwise how do we explain men with Androgenetic Alopecia who have paradoxically low serum DHT levels? It really all has to do with 5AR activity in the scalp. Since DHT is an autocrine hormone (produced and signals receptors locally), circulating DHT in the bloodstream tells us little about DHT being produced in the scalp.

 

[TinTon]

It defo comes down to the sensitivity of your AR receptors, hence why finasteride and dutasteride don't work for some people, these people would need literally zero levels of scalp/serum DHT in order to stop their Androgenetic Alopecia.

I have naturally low levels of blood DHT (without taking any androgen blocker drugs), yet I'm still balding.

 

[Andyz]

Hi there I have tried hair muck and revivogen for about the last 6 months with reasonable gains I think. I recently added saw palmetto & beta sitosterol orally and about a month later started what I think is gyno - increased mass and sensitivity. I stopped orally but a month later haven't noticed any change and still sensitive nips.....even took some arimistane but I really have no idea whether that is safe and/or would help. Are many people here using anything to keep E2 in check?

My main question is does anyone think hair muck or revivogen could be systemically absorbed? I know my scalp seems to absorb easily because I tried S5 cream only once and woke up the next day completely dazed and groggy so I never took it again. I also tried one application of topical finasteride and I know that definitely absorbed too. As far as I can tell all the topical finasteride mixes are wayyyyy to strong - .05% is miles too much!

I hadn't noticed hair muck or revivogen absorbing over the last 6 months but when I think about it I did have some increase in fat around the breast area building up that a couple of times i had noticed but not really thought much further about. I didn't get the tingling until after orally taking saw/beta but I don't know whether they are the only problem or if it was happening slowly anyway and the oral consumption tipped it over the edge! Any opinions much appreciated!

The other thing is that after applying revivogen now I seem to get the tingling in my nips within a couple of hours could I be imagining this now????!