Proscar and blood tests

[mhbaizai007]

Hi guys.I have been using Proscar for about six month under the guidance of my family physician. I use it plus rogaine daily. The doctor asked me to take a blood test. He told me to take it twice a year..once every six month..it looks like its for lever isnt it? (thats my guess cause i didnt ask him)
my question is how risky is it on the lever if someone is using proscar or propecia.

 

[triton2]

To the best of my knowledge, finasteride shouldn't be harsh on the liver. I mean, it shouldn't be harsher than food, aspirins,etc. Take 20grams of protein more everyday, does it have to be filtered by the liver? yes. Is your liver going to be more 'loaded' than it should be if you were taking 20grams less?Sure. Does that mean those 20grams are liver-toxic and hence you should be take the trouble of testing your blood? No, at least no more than you'd do otherwise.
The only type of blood test that would be useful as far as finasteride is concerned would be a hormonal test which allowed you to monitor your Estrogen and DHT levels, so that you could take an antiestrogen (in order to prevent gyno) without taking the risk of lowering E levels too much, while you also make sure that your DHT levels don't raise too much as a consecuence of HPTA upregulation. That would be a USEFUL test, not a test designed to prevent finasteride hepatoxicity, which doesn't exist in the first place.

 

[mhbaizai007]

Triton..thanks for your reply...but monitoring the DHT level..through blood test..I mean i always think if you take a medication and do a blood test because of that means the medication might be dangerous..or Am i exagerating?

 

[triton2]

I mean i always think if you take a medication and do a blood test because of that means the medication might be dangerous..or Am i exagerating?

I think that the dangers, should there be any, that one might be exposed to when using a 5AR blocker aren't measurable through a blood test. If anything, a hormonal blood test might give you a clue as to whether your E levels are 'dangerously' high or low... anything other than that I don't think a blood test can provide you with. I guess that if your Doctor had prescribed valerian root capsules instead of finasteride he would probably have told you to monitor your liver values "because of the very dangerous capsules you are exogenously taking".
Drinking the quantity of alcohol 50% of population drinks weekly is surely waaayyyyyyyyyyy more hepatoxic than your daily finasteride dosage.

If your liver concerns you you might also take supplements like NAC or sAME; the latter works wonders as far as recovering from liver toxicity is concerned.

 

[timo]

To the best of my knowledge, finasteride shouldn't be harsh on the liver. I mean, it shouldn't be harsher than food, aspirins,etc. Take 20grams of protein more everyday, does it have to be filtered by the liver? yes. Is your liver going to be more 'loaded' than it should be if you were taking 20grams less?Sure. Does that mean those 20grams are liver-toxic and hence you should be take the trouble of testing your blood? No, at least no more than you'd do otherwise.
The only type of blood test that would be useful as far as finasteride is concerned would be a hormonal test which allowed you to monitor your Estrogen and DHT levels, so that you could take an antiestrogen (in order to prevent gyno) without taking the risk of lowering E levels too much, while you also make sure that your DHT levels don't raise too much as a consecuence of HPTA upregulation. That would be a USEFUL test, not a test designed to prevent finasteride hepatoxicity, which doesn't exist in the first place.

Is it common that fina causes gyno? Are other sides, such as bloating, common too? I thought that the estrogen levels wouldn't get that high.. However, if it is, I guess a medicine attaching to the estrogen receptors would be a better choice than an aromatase inhibitor (if you want to be less androgenic and prevent male pattern baldness)... Ie. clomide instead of arimidex or similar... (excuse my bad english) -timo

EDIT: ..better because an aromatase inhibitor would leave more free testosterone.. an estrogen antagonist (sp?) would just make the estrogen "useless"

 

[triton2]

Your logic is flawed, friend! If aromatase inhibitors produce sharp raises in T levels isn't because they 'free' test from aromatase enzyme, but because lowering E levels produces HPTA upregulation. Only less than 1% of testosterone converts to estrogen, so the mechanism you took into account is completely tiny as far as increased T levels is concerned.
SERMs (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators) antagonize hypothalamus ER, so LH, and ergo T levels, are increased.
A SERM such as tamoxifen is much cheaper than an aromatase inhibitor, such as letrozole or anastrozole, and, contrary to AIs, it's been shown in many scientific studies to reverse gynecomastia. The problem with SERMs is that, if used for long periods of time, they can easily drive to ocular toxicity. :freaked2:


Acta Endocrinol (Copenh). 1981 Jun;97(2):145-9. Related Articles, Links


Direct evidence in men for a role of endogenous oestrogens on gonadotrophin release.

D'Agata R, Vicari E, Aliffi A, Gulizia S, Palumbo G.

In six healthy subjects serum oestradiol was selectively decreased by administering an aromatase activity inhibitor, hydrotestolactone (hair transplant). After hair transplant administration serum oestradiol (Oe2) decreased from 18.7 +/- 2.3 (SEM) to 6.7 +/- 0.6 pg/ml whereas testosterone (T) and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) blood levels were not modified. These oestradiol changes were associated with a significant increase in serum LH and FSH concentrations (P less than 0.001). The administration of tamoxifen, an oestrogen antagonist, to 5 subjects caused a sharp increase in LH and FSH levels (P less than 0.001). Oe2 was unchanged after the treatment with tamoxifen, whereas T levels were significantly higher. The sum of these data suggests that oestradiol under physiological conditions plays a specific role in the feedback mechanism of gonadotrophin release.

 

[Britannia]

timo it is not common for finasteride to cause gyno (if you take recommended doses) in there is little chance of having ANY side effects with finasteride at all. OK so the 2% rate of side effects is not believed by all on here, but even so the incidence of side effects are rare (reme,ber millions of men take Propecia).

 

[triton2]

timo it is not common for finasteride to cause gyno (if you take recommended doses)

If took 10x times the recommended dose I don't think it should be more likely to cause gyno, for DHT inhibition would be the same.
Finasteride's side effects (at least as far as gyno is concerned) are a result of the % of DHT blocked. So if taking larger doses than the recommended doses is no more benefitial as far as hairloss is concerned, it's not going to be more risky as far as gyno goes either.

 

[Britannia]

timo it is not common for finasteride to cause gyno (if you take recommended doses)

If took 10x times the recommended dose I don't think it should be more likely to cause gyno, for DHT inhibition would be the same.
Finasteride's side effects (at least as far as gyno is concerned) are a result of the % of DHT blocked. So if taking larger doses than the recommended doses is no more benefitial as far as hairloss is concerned, it's not going to be more risky as far as gyno goes either.

Im sorry that Ive had to argue with pretty much everything youve posted on this forum so far, but again the information you have posted here is incorrect.
Firstly Finasterides side effects are NOT the result of the % of DHT blocked. They are a result of the sensitivity of various parts and systems in the body to the blockage of DHT, or in some cases the inability of some peoples metabolic system to correctly metabolise the drug.
Secondly just because taking larger doses doesnt effect hair loss THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT TAKING LARGER DOSES OF finasteride WONT EFFECT OTHER PARTS OF THE BODY? Have you not heard of PROSCAR??? This is FIVE times the strength of Propecia, and effects a different part of the body (the prostate). If you exceed the recommended doses of finasteride then other parts of your body are going to "feel" the effects of DHT supression. And yes this includes the formation of gyno.
Your opinions are very much appreciated on this forum, but stop posting incorrect information on topics that you clearly know little about.

 

[triton2]

Firstly Finasterides side effects are NOT the result of the % of DHT blocked. They are a result of the sensitivity of various parts and systems in the body to the blockage of DHT,

That's exactly the same. Those parts of the body are sensitive to the blockage of DHT. What's the difference between that and saying that, as a result of the % of DHT blocked, some side effects begin to appear?

Secondly just because taking larger doses doesnt effect hair loss THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT TAKING LARGER DOSES OF finasteride WONT EFFECT OTHER PARTS OF THE BODY? Have you not heard of PROSCAR??? This is FIVE times the strength of Propecia, and effects a different part of the body (the prostate).

Proscar and propecia don't affect different parts of the body. They are just the same. The difference between them is that 5mg of finasteride block A BIT more DHT than 1mg of finasteride. A bit more blockage might mean a bit more risk of developing gyno but, at the same time, it means a bit more hairloss effectiveness. Of course the difference between the blockage proscar and propecia exert is so insignificant that it's irrelevant.

If you exceed the recommended doses of finasteride then other parts of your body are going to "feel" the effects of DHT supression.

If Xmg of finasteride block Y% of DHT and 10Xmg of finasteride also block Y% of DHT, why would I have a higher risk of experiencing side effects related to DHT supression?
If C mg of finasteride block D% of DHT and 3C mg of finasteride block 2D% of DHT I would certainly be more likely to experience side effects such as gyno, but I would also be able to experience less hairloss.
As far as finasteride is concerned, risk of estrogenic side effects and hair benefits go hand with hand... if you experience gynecomastia is because E levels go up as a result of lowering DHT.

 

[triton2]

By the way, read this post from Bryan:

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... de+effects


"Bullshit. Side-effects are proportional to DHT reduction. Just use dutasteride by itself, and skip the finasteride. "

 

[Britannia]

Firstly Finasterides side effects are NOT the result of the % of DHT blocked. They are a result of the sensitivity of various parts and systems in the body to the blockage of DHT,

That's exactly the same. Those parts of the body are sensitive to the blockage of DHT. What's the difference between that and saying that, as a result of the % of DHT blocked, some side effects begin to appear?

Secondly just because taking larger doses doesnt effect hair loss THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT TAKING LARGER DOSES OF finasteride WONT EFFECT OTHER PARTS OF THE BODY? Have you not heard of PROSCAR??? This is FIVE times the strength of Propecia, and effects a different part of the body (the prostate).

Proscar and propecia don't affect different parts of the body. They are just the same. The difference between them is that 5mg of finasteride block A BIT more DHT than 1mg of finasteride. A bit more blockage might mean a bit more risk of developing gyno but, at the same time, it means a bit more hairloss effectiveness. Of course the difference between the blockage proscar and propecia exert is so insignificant that it's irrelevant.

[quote:d62d5]
If you exceed the recommended doses of finasteride then other parts of your body are going to "feel" the effects of DHT supression.

If Xmg of finasteride block Y% of DHT and 10Xmg of finasteride also block Y% of DHT, why would I have a higher risk of experiencing side effects related to DHT supression?
If C mg of finasteride block D% of DHT and 3C mg of finasteride block 2D% of DHT I would certainly be more likely to experience side effects such as gyno, but I would also be able to experience less hairloss.
As far as finasteride is concerned, risk of estrogenic side effects and hair benefits go hand with hand... if you experience gynecomastia is because E levels go up as a result of lowering DHT.[/quote:d62d5]

Will somebody PLEASE buy this guy a science text book?
Im not going to bother arguing with you triton, I have studied biology/pharmakinetics/pharmadynamics/biomedical science at various levels (including Bsc (hons) level) so Im pretty confident in what I post here. Im not saying Im always right, but please STOP trying to blag all this science crap your posting. Remember most people on here have in depth knowledge about DHT mechanics and Propecias methods of action. Your making yourself look very silly.

 

[triton2]

From now on, given the fact that, as a result of your lack of respect, you are beginning to really annoy and offend me, I'm just going to ignore all your posts.

Take care, bro.

 

[Britannia]

I dont ever mean to annoy or offend people. And I dont consider myself a disrespectful person. Like I said your opinions are appreciated on this forum, as are everyones, the point I was making was that the science of DHT and Propecia is very very complicated, and I believed some of the information you posted was incorrect. Please dont ignore my posts just because Ive annoyed you, I get involved with most topics on this forum and I like to think I have helped people out. If your unsure of things just read round this forum or start a new topic asking a question.
Peace.

 

[HairlossTalk]

To the best of my knowledge, finasteride shouldn't be harsh on the liver. I mean, it shouldn't be harsher than food, aspirins,etc.

This is incorrect. Propecia is heavily metabolized in the liver, and his doctor suggesting liver enzyme tests is doing the right thing. Monitoring your liver functions is the only blood test that is really suggested for Propecia users, although most of them will be fine. Typically only people with liver conditions need to worry about it very much, but it is not equivilent to food or aspirins. Liver enzyme levels should be monitored.

Triton - you are welcome here - as you seem to be a lover of information and studies. I appreciate that and your participation here. But lets all try to play nice. Remember we are all on the same side. Fighting for one cause together. Our only enemies out there are the snake oilers who lie to us and our compadres (fellow consumers) to make money and harm their hair.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[triton2]

Taking that into account, wouldn't it be a nice idea taking finasteride transdermally?

 

[HairlossTalk]

Yep and as Bryan said, the effectiveness data of a topically applied finasteride are "all over the place". Doesn't seem to be a clear solid faith we can put in its effectiveness when applied this way. TOTAL bummer.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[SE-freak]

I think he meant by injecting it.

 

[triton2]

When I said applying it transdermally I wasn't thinking about applying it to the scalp hoping that it had a localized effect, but rather applying it to my BODY with a good transdermal vehicle (DMSO+oleic acid+isopropyl miristrate,etc.) hoping that it would be systemically absorbed in the same way that transdermal steroids get into your bloodstream.

 

[Britannia]

triton there would be little advantage In doing this as finasteride is already well systemically absorbed into the bloodstrean when taking orally. I believe some people are talking over on the dutasteride forum about something similar being used as a delivery system for dutasteride.