Questions about folligen/minoxidil...

[Vampa]

Currently I've been on on finasteride and nizoral for just under 4 months and fortunately, I never had any major shed.

The problem for me is that it's my hairline/temples that I'm having a problem with. I have a pretty big forehead to begin with, and the recession is making things far worse for me. (You can see my recent update here)

So between minoxidil and copper peptides, which will give me the best possible chance for regrowth? While I don't want to spend a lot of money, I don't mind it if there's a high chance that I'll get results.

Also, based on your experiences, is putting on something like minoxidil/folligen quick and clean or is it a long process? I'm going away to college next month and while I'll be lucky enough to live alone, I don't want to spend a lot of time applying this stuff or worry about having green splotches in my hair because of this stuff.

Thanks in advance.[/url]

 

[socks]

Stay away from minoxidil if you want my opinion. The stuff is garbage. Trust me, putting greasy *** fluid on your head that will likely only result in peach fuzz regrowth isnt worth it. Any hair minoxidil effects becomes dependent on minoxidil for life and if you EVER stop you loose that hair.

Save minoxidil as a last resort bro.

I dont think copper peptides is going to give you much regrowth though... IMHO, copper peptides are best for inflammation which is an important part of male pattern baldness weather you "see" it or not.

I think what you might want to do is:

1. Stay with the Finasteride. If you're not already, try getting a Doctor to write you a prescription for Proscar and cut it into 1/4ths. You will save major money and get more Finasteride per dose.

2. Use Nizoral 2% one day and then alternate with Selsun Blue. On the evening BEFORE the morning you are going to use the Selsun use the Folligen cream or lotion the night before.

Give it atleast one year and see where you are. Remember, nothing you do is going to give you quick results. Because of the growth cycle of hair and the slow growing nature of hair it is always going to take around 6months to one-year to be able to accurately gauge results.

I think you are on a good solid regiment. Stick with it and remember, the most modern medicine can do for you is to maintain what you have. Regrowth should be looked at as a bonus. Dont strive for it as you'll drive yourself crazy and might do more harm then good.

I looked at your pics and it seems you are in good shape if you can atleast keep what you got

GL bud

 

[absmon]

If you want regrowth on hairline and temple, you need to get on minoxidil no matter how inconvenient.

 

[Guest]

If you want regrowth on hairline and temple, you need to get on minoxidil no matter how inconvenient.

I agree with absmon

I think socks posts is a little off target here!

Ty

 

[blue]

Offtarget and biased in my opinion.

minoxidil is a simple procedure for applying once you get used to it.
It doesnt take an hour or anything like that....if you get on a routine like when you are getting ready in the morning make minoxidil part of it..after that applying just comes second nature.

 

[Bryan]

Stay away from minoxidil if you want my opinion...Any hair minoxidil effects becomes dependent on minoxidil for life and if you EVER stop you loose that hair.

But socks, you can say that about EVERY pharmaceutical hairloss treatment! You can say it about Propecia. You can say it about Nizoral, Tricomin, Folligen, Proxiphen, 6-BAP, RU58841, fluridil, spironolactone, Retin-A, dutasteride, and everything else. Why are you singling out minoxidil for that complaint?

Bryan

 

[BadHairDecade]

I'd Use both...

If you're worried about the greening effect of folligen, use Tricomin.

IF you're worried about minoxidil being greasy or inconvenient, buy Dr. Lee's minoxidil. It dries quickly and it's not greasy at all.

 

[JWM]

This is simple. USE MINOXIDIL. IT GROWS HAIR.

 

[Vampa]

I appreciate all of the input.

Anyone else? (please include whether it's easy to apply and whatnot)

 

[socks]

Bryan Writes:

But socks, you can say that about EVERY pharmaceutical hairloss treatment! You can say it about Propecia. You can say it about Nizoral, Tricomin, Folligen, Proxiphen, 6-BAP, RU58841, fluridil, spironolactone, Retin-A, dutasteride, and everything else. Why are you singling out minoxidil for that complaint?

Let me ask you this:

If you used minoxidil for X number of years, can you maintain those results with a DHT blocker like Propecia or Dutasteride?

Taking it a step further, could you maintain what minoxidil gives you if you had a magic DHT pill that blocked all DHT?

The answer I have received is no. Hair saved on minoxidil needs minoxidil to survive.


However, if you use that same example with many (if not all) of the treatments you mentioned you would, to my understanding, keep all the hair.

You hair doesnt **need** Finasteride or Dutasteride. It needs the reduction of DHT it provides. You have the flexibility to change treatments in the future with the above examples as more potent meds become available.

It seems once you start on minoxidil you NEVER can stop without a HUGE shed.


Now, my advice to **any** guy that still has good cosmetic hair on their heads is this:

1. Get on an internal DHT blocker like Finasteride or Dutasteride. This is the most important step IMHO.

2. Get on a good anti-inflammatory routine such as Nizoral 2% and Folligen. This is also very crucial.

3. Use a topical DHT blocker like zix w/ azelaic acid and/or spironolactone to name a few. This isnt as critical only because there is conflicting evidence as to weather these topicals even work. I feel they do but some feel other wise. I still recommend getting on a topical as it cant hurt.


I then suggest waiting one year. See where you're at. If you're still unhappy then consider adding to that routine. Just be realistic. Dont expect minoxidil to take you from a NW3 to a NW1.

I personally feel minoxidil is best used for diffused thinners who have hair that just needs to be thickened up. EVERY verifiable pic I've seen with minoxidil on bald areas yield peach fuzz and small little hairs as best results.

I'm sorry guys but that kind of hair amounts to jack sh*t when it comes to what is cosmetically acceptable. If you're at the stage where that kind of regrowth is welcome then you should consider a hair transplant IMHO.


Again, all the ideas expressed in the above are my opinions!!!! I am not a medical doctor and I am not giving medical advice.

 

[Bryan]

Let me ask you this:

If you used minoxidil for X number of years, can you maintain those results with a DHT blocker like Propecia or Dutasteride?

Probably not. Not in most cases, anyway.

Taking it a step further, could you maintain what minoxidil gives you if you had a magic DHT pill that blocked all DHT?

Probably not. Not in most cases, anyway.

The answer I have received is no. Hair saved on minoxidil needs minoxidil to survive.

Agreed, although with an important qualification that I mention below!

However, if you use that same example with many (if not all) of the treatments you mentioned you would, to my understanding, keep all the hair.

That's not true. If you stop using any of those other treatments (without substituting another treatment that works in a similar way), you WILL lose all the progress that you made with it. No exceptions.

You hair doesnt **need** Finasteride or Dutasteride. It needs the reduction of DHT it provides. You have the flexibility to change treatments in the future with the above examples as more potent meds become available.

Yes, but so what? The same thing is true for minoxidil! There are at least a couple of other substances (NANO and diazoxide) which appear to work in the same way as minoxidil, and could be substituted for it. You STILL haven't said anything that's unique to minoxidil, and you shouldn't have singled it out in your original complaint!

It seems once you start on minoxidil you NEVER can stop without a HUGE shed.

And the same is true for ANY pharmaceutical treatment, although there is some overlap among treatments, as we've both pointed out above. I don't see that the fact that one treatment can possibly be substituted for another is particularly relevant in this context. The major point here is that once you start ANY of these treatments, you MUST continue that treatment, or another one that performs a very similar function. THAT is the take-home message. Minoxidil is in no way unique in that regard.

Now, my advice to **any** guy that still has good cosmetic hair on their heads is this:

1. Get on an internal DHT blocker like Finasteride or Dutasteride. This is the most important step IMHO.

Did you know that topical RU58841 is more effective in stumptailed macaques than even HUGE doses of oral finasteride?

I then suggest waiting one year. See where you're at. If you're still unhappy then consider adding to that routine. Just be realistic. Dont expect minoxidil to take you from a NW3 to a NW1.

Don't expect ANYTHING to take you from a NW3 to a NW1! Again, you shouldn't single-out minoxidil when you say that!

I personally feel minoxidil is best used for diffused thinners who have hair that just needs to be thickened up. EVERY verifiable pic I've seen with minoxidil on bald areas yield peach fuzz and small little hairs as best results.

Huh?? I can show you LOTS of verifiable pics of good regrowth from topical minoxidil. Here's one that was published in a medical journal:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/min ... growth.htm

Socs, haven't you ever compared hair-count and hair-weight improvements from topical minoxidil with those from finasteride and dutasteride? You'll probably be surprised to learn that minoxidil beats-out both of them!

Bryan

 

[socks]

Bryan Writes:

That's not true. If you stop using any of those other treatments (without substituting another treatment that works in a similar way), you WILL lose all the progress that you made with it. No exceptions.

I never argued otherwise!

Here is the key difference:

With Finasteride or Dutasteride you can sub in any other med that blocks DHT and keep your hair. With minoxidil you have to use the EXACT same compound to keep the hair it effects.

With anti-inflammatory shampoos like nizoral you can sub in any other shampoo that can provide equal anti-inflammatory function and still keep your hair.. You dont need to use Nizoral (although Nizoral does have some anti-DHT properties that arent known in other shampoos). Same for Folligen.

***The entire point is that you arent stuck HAVING to use one specific type of medicine that may very well be outdated within the next 5-10yrs.***

There are other similar minoxidil like products in the pipeline that seem to promise better results then minoxidil... What will happen if a user decides to switch from minoxidil to this other agent? Will they loose all the minoxidil saved hair? Can you answer that question with certainty?

With Finasteride or Dutasteride if a better compound comes out that blocks DHT or some unknown precursor you STILL keep all your results. That may or may not be important or relevant to everyone. However, it is for me


Bryan Writes:

Don't expect ANYTHING to take you from a NW3 to a NW1! Again, you shouldn't single-out minoxidil when you say that!

I know that and you know that but not every one that comes here knows that.

They hear minoxidil and regrowth and many newbies may naturally think, "I'm going to get lots of cosmetic hair back where I want it".

I singled minoxidil out BECAUSE that is its claim to fame so to speak. Unlike Finasteride or Dutasteride who claim to fame is maintenance.


Bryan Writes:

Huh?? I can show you LOTS of verifiable pics of good regrowth from topical minoxidil. Here's one that was published in a medical journal:

What you consider good regrowth differs from what I consider good regrowth

The pics you provided were low resolution B&W. Therefore, that is irrelevant to me. I would be very interested if you could provide me with a site that could show high quality color pics of men with male pattern baldness who used no other regrowth drug but minoxidil with amazing results.... If you could then have such a site state scientifically that the majority of men with male pattern baldness can get the same results then I will be a born again minoxidil believer and pusher LoL :wink:


Socs, haven't you ever compared hair-count and hair-weight improvements from topical minoxidil with those from finasteride and dutasteride? You'll probably be surprised to learn that minoxidil beats-out both of them!

I never disputed that minoxidil will grow hair... Therefore the hair-count and hair-weight would naturally be greater. That goes without saying.

From my personally perceptive all I care about is what is going to give me the best cosmetic outcome with the least amount of hassle and maximum flexibility for the future.


That is why I always tell people that IMHO, if you got good hair now try a DHT blocker (internal and external) with a good anti-inflammatory shampoo. Then see where you are in a year.

If it works you will never have to worry about having to ALWAYS use minoxidil. Perhaps in several yrs a better topical regrowth drug will become available that wont have the side effect of requiring one to have to use that EXACT chemical compound to maintain the results... or atleast the results will be more worthwhile and cosmetic. Again, if memory serves right minoxidil only works in 50% of men or so...

I dont think it is fair or honest to take "best case" results with minoxidil to use as examples. Maybe some guys get fantastic results on it. I never met one. I'm sure they are out there though.


In the end, my only intent is to give Vampa another point of view on the minoxidil option.

There are always two sides of a coin


I am interested in the topical RU58841 you mentioned. What exactly is it?

 

[Bryan]

With Finasteride or Dutasteride you can sub in any other med that blocks DHT and keep your hair. With minoxidil you have to use the EXACT same compound to keep the hair it effects.

You ignored the examples I gave you of how that's not necessarily true! But in any case, I still ask you: SO WHAT? Are you afraid of minoxidil no longer being available in the future, and so anyone who starts using it now might someday be left high and dry without that drug?? I can assure you that will never be the case. Topical minoxidil will always be available (or at least replaced by other drugs which work even better), so that's not a valid objection.

***The entire point is that you arent stuck HAVING to use one specific type of medicine that may very well be outdated within the next 5-10yrs.***

Socks, you aren't making any sense! If minoxidil becomes "outdated" in 10 years, then that's EXCELLENT! Just start using the even better drug which replaces it! :wink:

There are other similar minoxidil like products in the pipeline that seem to promise better results then minoxidil... What will happen if a user decides to switch from minoxidil to this other agent? Will they loose all the minoxidil saved hair? Can you answer that question with certainty?

Oh, with about a 99% certainty, I'd say: If a person switches to an even better regrowth agent, then he'll probably get even better regrowth. If the new drug doesn't work well for a particular individual for whatever reason, then that person can always just go back to regular minoxidil.

You still haven't demonstrated any valid reason to me why minoxidil should be singled-out for criticism the way you did.

Bryan Writes:

Huh?? I can show you LOTS of verifiable pics of good regrowth from topical minoxidil. Here's one that was published in a medical journal:

What you consider good regrowth differs from what I consider good regrowth

What you consider good regrowth differs from what EVERYBODY ELSE considers good regrowth, not just me! :wink: Everybody else but you considers those pics to be amazing!

The pics you provided were low resolution B&W. Therefore, that is irrelevant to me.

Socks, come on, man... You're scraping the very bottom of the barrel now, trying to minimize those dramatic before-and-after pics.

That is why I always tell people that IMHO, if you got good hair now try a DHT blocker (internal and external) with a good anti-inflammatory shampoo. Then see where you are in a year.

If it works you will never have to worry about having to ALWAYS use minoxidil.

No, but you'll still have to ALWAYS use a 5a-reductase inhibitor! :wink:

Perhaps in several yrs a better topical regrowth drug will become available that wont have the side effect of requiring one to have to use that EXACT chemical compound to maintain the results...

That's a ridiculous argument to make, as I think I've now clearly demonstrated.

I dont think it is fair or honest to take "best case" results with minoxidil to use as examples. Maybe some guys get fantastic results on it. I never met one.

Oh, I don't think it's any less fair or honest than to try to tell everyone that all minoxidil does is grow "peach-fuzz"!

There are always two sides of a coin

I still don't see any other side of the coin! You haven't convinced me that your point about minoxidil has any validity at all.

I am interested in the topical RU58841 you mentioned. What exactly is it?

RU58841 is an experimental drug developed by a French doctor in 1994. It is quite possibly the most powerful and effective topical antiandrogen ever developed! It has been tested extensively in the stumptailed macaque model of male pattern baldness, with good results. For more information, you can search PubMed or any of the hairloss sites. RU58841 has attained nearly legendary status in some circles for its potential as a safe, non-systemic topical antiandrogen for hairloss. Here's a scan of an early study which tested RU58841 on stumptailed macaques:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/RU58841a.htm

Bryan

 

[avri]

Everybody else but you considers those pics to be amazing!

Nope, even the study authors describe it as merely a "moderate cosmetic response". That reinforces socks' suggestion that the low quality B&W photo accounts for it.


avri

 

[Bryan]

Everybody else but you considers those pics to be amazing!

Nope, even the study authors describe it as merely a "moderate cosmetic response". That reinforces socks' suggestion that the low quality B&W photo accounts for it.

LOL! That's a pretty good example of convoluted reasoning: the pics were amazing, but the docs still said it was "moderate", so that PROVES there must be something wrong with the pics!

Actually, it was just VERY cautious verbiage on the part of the doctors, who tend to be very conservative in their language. In a subsequent issue of that medical journal, there were comments from other doctors on that study in the Letters to the Editor section, including something about that very same photograph. Here's the reply from Dr. Olsen et al: "All photographs were taken with an attempt at standardization and hair was combed before photographs to approximate that present in baseline photographs. The photograph of the subject in Fig. 3 of our paper was chosen to illustrate what we considered a very good response to topical minoxidil based on subjective and objective assessment parameters."

Bryan

 

[Vampa]

Wow, those results were pretty amazing! Perfect? No, but still very good.

Fortunately I don't have that big of a problem. Also, I'm hoping for very little; if you look at the right side of my head, you'll notice that the hairline just above the ears is recessed more (although it looks like I might be regaining some of that) and the temple is recessed a bit further. If I could just get that side to be symettrical with the left side, I'd be satisfied. Any extra would just be icing on the cake.

Does that seem feasible based off my pics?

(July 6-3 is the left side and July 6-5 is the right, since the pictures are fairly large and bandwidth intensive...if you look at 5, you can see some thinner hair starting to grow; I'd want that thickened along with the temple to not be as deep...that's the kind of results I'm referring to in this post)

 

[avri]

LOL! That's a pretty good example of convoluted reasoning: the pics were amazing, but the docs still said it was "moderate", so that PROVES there must be something wrong with the pics!

The photo is what YOU see, the researchers are the ones who've seen the results first hand. Any beginner photo student will attest to the low quality of the photo, and how photos of such low quality can be deceptive. So yes, I AM attributing more to the word of those who've seen it first hand than to yours trying to discredit socks just to make a point that's questionable at best.


avri

 

[Bryan]

The photo is what YOU see, the researchers are the ones who've seen the results first hand. Any beginner photo student will attest to the low quality of the photo, and how photos of such low quality can be deceptive. So yes, I AM attributing more to the word of those who've seen it first hand than to yours trying to discredit socks just to make a point that's questionable at best.

So what's YOUR point? You saw what Dr. Olsen said, herself. If you think my point is "questionable at best", you're completely off your rocker.

Bryan

 

[socks]

But in any case, I still ask you: SO WHAT? Are you afraid of minoxidil no longer being available in the future, and so anyone who starts using it now might someday be left high and dry without that drug?? I can assure you that will never be the case. Topical minoxidil will always be available (or at least replaced by other drugs which work even better), so that's not a valid objection.

I think I made it abundantly clear that I personally would not want to be dependent on ONE exact compound of drug.

I really think you need to read, re-read, and read again that statement.

It isnt that I fear minoxidil will sometime in the future not be available. I fear that there may be a better treatment in the future and I dont want to be stuck sloping minoxidil on my head!

Oh, with about a 99% certainty, I'd say: If a person switches to an even better regrowth agent, then he'll probably get even better regrowth. If the new drug doesn't work well for a particular individual for whatever reason, then that person can always just go back to regular minoxidil.

Oh I dont think anyone can make such a bold statement. There is no way of knowing if a newer and improved compound could maintain hair that is minoxidil dependent. There is no way of knowing if a future growth compound could recover hair lost from minoxidil shed resulting from stopping minoxidil treatment.

What you consider good regrowth differs from what EVERYBODY ELSE considers good regrowth, not just me! Everybody else but you considers those pics to be amazing!

Bryan PLEASE!!! Minoxidil regrowth is not amazing for most men!!! Those pics were not amazing!!! It was a low-resolution photo in B&W!!!! I would bet money that "new" hair would be completely see through under any normal light!!!

Socks, come on, man... You're scraping the very bottom of the barrel now, trying to minimize those dramatic before-and-after pics.

I'm not even the only one in this thread that said that!!! They arent amazing pics. Even if they were that doesnt mean most men could even expect those results!!

No, but you'll still have to ALWAYS use a 5a-reductase inhibitor!

A small pill that can be substituted for any future DHT or precursor DHT treatment VS liquid, greasy, messy, garbage, that your hair becomes addicted to.... I'm fine with that

Oh, I don't think it's any less fair or honest than to try to tell everyone that all minoxidil does is grow "peach-fuzz"!

For most men that I have talked to that is exactly all it does!!! I'm sure some guys might get better results but I wont advocate a product based on the results of a small minority of men (from my personal experience).

I still don't see any other side of the coin! You haven't convinced me that your point about minoxidil has any validity at all.

I'm not trying to convince you though!!!

I'm simply providing a different side of the coin to Vampa. I understand that you enjoy trying to pick apart words... My intention is not to provide a solid, foolproof, scientific analysis, of minoxidil. I'm simply just a regular Joe who has formed his own personal opinions of hairloss products over the last 6months of my own research.


My argument remains unchanged. Minoxidil is not an amazing hair regrowth product. I feel most men (especially young men) will be unhappy with the results.

I do not like the idea of being dependent of a specific type of compound for life. I like the flexibility of being able to change compounds as newer products become available without having to worry about some huge shed where my hair may or may not regrow!!!

If minoxidil truly gave consistent amazing results I would feel different. I understand that if you stopped drugs like Finasteride and Dutasteride you still would need to take some other DHT or DHT precursor blocking compound. I'm fine with that though as it gives me confidence (no matter how irrational to you) that I dont have to depend on one specific mediocre product to maintain my results!!!

Again, it would be different if I could use minoxidil and get tons of regrowth of viable cosmetic hair!!! But most men just dont. So why the hell do I want to get stuck on such a mediocre product?

Again, there is no way of knowing that a future regrowth drug can maintain minoxidil results! There is no way if knowing if the shed from stopping minoxidil could be recovered with a future regrowth product.

Most studies I know of with regrowth agents are done on virgin scalps. Not scalps that have minoxidil dependent hair. So even if some future regrowth drug gives a guy with virgin hair super growth there is no way of knowing for sure what a guy with minoxidil dependent hair can expect until there are tests done!

I'm not willing to take that risk for something that hardly gives good regrowth in the first place!!!

 

[socks]

trying to discredit socks just to make a point that's questionable at best.

Trying is the key word

I respect Bryan’s opinions. I think he is a well-informed guy and I actually respect him.

I do feel though that Bryan tends to pick apart sentences rather then look at the whole arguments.

The photo, as you said, is of "low quality". It shows nothing and, IMHO, was in poor taste to use.

Bottom line is most guys here I think know that minoxidil isnt going to give amazing, super, or even great results to most men with male pattern baldness. I dont see how Bryan, as intelligent as he is, could even allude to such a thing!!!

I'm not knocking minoxidil users, but I think minoxidil should be used last. Just my two cents