RU58841 liposomal works ,alcohol/PPG does not

colin

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Here are a couple abstracts on RU that indicate that RU is a waste with alcohol/PP as e delivery vehicle,IIRC that is what most people on these boards have used for RU.

M question is,where can I buy such a liposomal carrier for RU?

I have RU sitting in my freezer and I'll provide a log with pics on this board when I get the carrier....


J Pharm Sci. 1997 May;86(5):573-8.

Importance of sebaceous glands in cutaneous penetration of an antiandrogen: target effect of liposomes.
Bernard E, Dubois JL, Wepierre J.

Laboratoire de dermophamacologie, Faculté de Pharmacie, Châtenay-Malabry, France.

The significance of the sebaceous gland pathway in the cutaneous permeation of an antiandrogen, 4-[3-(4-hydroxybutyl)-4,4-dimethyl -2,5-dioxo-1-imidazolidinyl]-2-(trifluoromethyl)benzonitrile (RU 58841), was studied with normal hairless rat skin and an induced scar hairless rat skin without sebaceous glands. RU 58841 was dissolved in an alcoholic solution and encapsulated in liposomes for comparison. After 24 h, the cumulative percentage of RU 58841 absorbed in vitro was 3-4-fold higher in the normal skin than in the scar skin; in the case of liposomes, the accumulation of the drug in the normal dermis was significantly higher than in the scar one. In the in vivo cutaneous distribution, the epidermis and dermis of the normal skin contained higher amounts of RU 58841 than the scar skin (ninefold with the solution and 16-fold with liposomes). An autoradiography study showed that with the solution, the drug was mainly localized in the stratum corneum/epidermis, and with the liposomes, the drug was mainly localized in the sebaceous glands. We concluded that the sebaceous glands constituted the main pathway for RU 58841. The alcoholic solution encouraged the localization of the drug into the stratum corneum, whereas liposomes targeted the sebaceous glands.

PMID: 9145381 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Expert Opin Drug Deliv. 2008 Jun;5(6):665-79.

Novel vesicular and particulate drug delivery systems for topical treatment of acne.
Castro GA, Ferreira LA.

Federal University of Minas Gerais, Department of Pharmaceutics, 31270-901, Belo Horizonte, Minas Gerais, Brazil.

BACKGROUND: The efficacy of the antiacne topical drugs is well established. The local side effects, however, mainly cutaneous irritation, erythema, dryness, peeling and scaling, remain major problems. Novel vesicular and particulate drug delivery systems have been proposed to reduce the side effects of drugs commonly used in the topical treatment of acne. OBJECTIVE: This review focuses on the development and evaluation of antiacne drug-loaded vesicular and particulate delivery systems (liposomes, polymeric microspheres and solid lipid nanoparticles) for topical treatment, their advantages and challenges. METHODS: All the literature available was reviewed to highlight the potential of these novel systems for the topical treatment of acne. CONCLUSION: The encapsulation of antiacne drugs in vesicular and particulate delivery systems represents an innovative alternative to minimize side effects, while preserving their efficacy. This can be obtained by the capacity of these systems to provide controlled release or to improve the drug penetration into skin or even into the pilosebaceous unit.

PMID: 18532922 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Ann N Y Acad Sci. 1995 Jun 12;761:56-65.

Local inhibition of sebaceous gland growth by topically applied RU 58841.
Matias JR, Gaillard M.

Nova Biosciences, Norrie Point Research Station, Staatsburg, New York 12553, USA.

The biological activity of a series of nonsteroidal, pure androgen receptor inhibitors was compared using the Syrian hamster ear skin sebaceous gland model. RU 58841, RU 56187, RU 38882 and cyproterone acetate were applied topically for 4 weeks on the ventral ear pinna of sexually mature male Syrian hamsters. Their order of efficacy was as follows: RU 58841 > RU 56187 > RU 38882 > cyproterone acetate. Maximal reduction of 60% in the size of the sebaceous glands was observed in hamsters treated with RU 58841 at a dose of 10 micrograms per day. This degree of inhibition occurred without any systemic side effects as shown by the absence of inhibition on the contralateral untreated ear pinna. Longer treatment did not produce greater inhibition since extending the treatment period from 4 weeks to 12 weeks showed similar data. The effect of RU 58841 was reversible since the inhibited sebaceous glands returned to normal size within 4 weeks after the cessation of the topical applications. The potent localized inhibition of sebaceous glands by RU 58841 demonstrates the excellent potential of this compound as a topical drug for the treatment of acne and other androgen-mediated disorders.

PMID: 7625751 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 1994 Jan;48(1):55-60.

RU 58841, a new specific topical antiandrogen: a candidate of choice for the treatment of acne, androgenetic alopecia and hirsutism.
Battmann T, Bonfils A, Branche C, Humbert J, Goubet F, Teutsch G, Philibert D.

Centre de Recherches Roussel Uclaf, Romainville, France.

A new topically active non-steroidal antiandrogen, RU 58841 has been synthesized. It displays high affinity for the hamster prostate and flank organ (F.O.) androgen receptors. In vivo, when topically applied, it exerts a potent dose-dependent regression of F.O. area at a dose as low as 1 microgram/animal while being devoid of antiandrogenic activity on deep accessory sex organs and of any effect on testosterone level up to 100 micrograms/animal. In the same species, after subcutaneous administration, it induces at the dose of 300 micrograms/animal, a small decrease in F.O. area equivalent to that of 1 microgram applied topically and a weak systemic activity. In intact rats, no effects were observed up to 1 microgram/animal whatever the route of administration. These results suggest that RU 58841 might useful for the topical treatment of androgen-dependent skin disorders such as acne, androgenetic alopecia and hirsutism.

PMID: 8136306 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 

colin

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monty1978 said:
Cheers for the info. I am gonna order some ru and try the same vehicle when I can get hold of it. ill keep you all posted too. I am 31 and have been bald twice at the crown and the back of the head when coming off of duts or finasteride so if it does actually work I will be able to tell for a fact very quickly.

good luck boys


Where do you plan on purchasing the liposomal carrier?

I cold use a source,thanks.
 

wesleyBelgium

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same here, a source for liposomes would be fantastic
it would be great for a asc-j9 topical or other products
would applying with a dermaroller not be more effective ?

check this post out : viewtopic.php?f=23&t=42654

i think this is empty liposomes cream :
http://www.jarpharma.com/puol.htm
 

el_duterino

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Hey Ryan..no worries Ethanol is fine..Vodka is fine too.

This research is just saying that More RU gets into the right place by using Liposomes..
So in real terms..using 60mg of RU-ETOH might be equivalent to 20mg in Liposomes .


Moxi did try to find if there was a route to make RU in liposomes and asked that guy at Elsom Research..(on hairsite) it should be possible but will be costly, time consuming and also pose other issues of the freshness of RU during shipping etc..

Besides, RU is not sold as normal drug, only for research purposes therefore there will be also legal issues for a company to make lipsomes out of it.

If this is available, we will end up paying less for RU powder because the vehicle needs less RU to have the same effectiveness, but pay more for the Liposomal process added cost...therefore in the end it will not be much difference anyways..better to just use more RU with cheap and available ethanol.

RU in alcohol works fine - maybe not the ideal method but if you are looking to maintain your hair TODAY instead of dreaming of the possible solutions, there is no other choice.
 

colin

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el_duterino said:
Hey Ryan..no worries Ethanol is fine..Vodka is fine too.

This research is just saying that More RU gets into the right place by using Liposomes..
So in real terms..using 60mg of RU-ETOH might be equivalent to 20mg in Liposomes .


Moxi did try to find if there was a route to make RU in liposomes and asked that guy at Elsom Research..(on hairsite) it should be possible but will be costly, time consuming and also pose other issues of the freshness of RU during shipping etc..

Besides, RU is not sold as normal drug, only for research purposes therefore there will be also legal issues for a company to make lipsomes out of it.

If this is available, we will end up paying less for RU powder because the vehicle needs less RU to have the same effectiveness, but pay more for the Liposomal process added cost...therefore in the end it will not be much difference anyways..better to just use more RU with cheap and available ethanol.

RU in alcohol works fine - maybe not the ideal method but if you are looking to maintain your hair TODAY instead of dreaming of the possible solutions, there is no other choice.


Why do you think one cannot add RU powder to an empty liposomal carrer?

Liposomal delivery has been around for decades so if one can purchase RU and such a carrier I see it as a hasty mistake to do otherwise.

How did you extrapolate a 1 to 3 ratio of efficacy from the studies above,I see no basis for this reasoning.

I see in your signature that you're currently using RU in Alcohol/PPG yet are also using an amp of fluridil a day with success.

If the amp is taken via injection and not applied locally you must be seeing some very undesirable sides e.g.lowering of T and cosequent increased b/f,less LBM,lethargy and possibly gyno.
 

el_duterino

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Colin, I am not against using liposomes - this would be great IF we had it but we don't. What empty liposome carrier you are refferring to ? where do we buy it ..I'd be willing to try it since I have a lot of power in the freezer from the period I used 200mg a day.

You seem to have never used RU on alcohol yourself, give it a try you will notice that it works fine too.

Fluridil is a topical, not to be injected thank god ! I don't see myself doing skin injections with syringues everyday just to fight hairloss....

Besides, fluridil does break-down in blood so even in such injection scenario it won't have any side effects...and any effects on hair either.
 

colin

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See post # 2 in this thread for a list of 4 possibile carriers with ,Id like to get your take on these.

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/inde ... opic=39918

I know little about chemistry but if a liposomal carrier can be sourced,it seems to me that one would just have to add the RU to it and shake well.

If I'm interpreting the abstracts correctly,an alcohol/PPG vehicle is vasty inferior to liposomes.

Regardig fluridil,why are you even using this if you have RU in use?

Different MOA or does it just potentiate RU's MOA?

If a liposoal carrier truly cannot be sourced at a reasonable price then fluridil+RU,along with minoxidil,seems good I suppose.While I'm at it,can you please throw me a link for a reputable source?

And FWIW,The Big Lebowski is a f*****g great movie,classic Coen brothers :)

el_duterino said:
Colin, I am not against usng liposomes - this would be great IF we had it but we don't. What empty liposome carrier you are refferring to ? where do we buy it ..I'd be willing to try it since I have a lot of power in the freezer from the period I used 200mg a day.

You seem to have never used RU on alcohol yourself, give it a try you will notice that it works fine too.

Fluridil is a topical, not to be injected thank god ! I don't see myself doing skin injections with syringues everyday just to fight hairloss....

Besides, fluridil does break-down in blood so even in such injection scenario it won't have any side effects...and any effects on hair either.
 

el_duterino

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I looked at the 4 links - 3 are not liposomal and 1 is but not empty carrier so its useless.

I have the Phlogel at home -tryed it with RU. those 3 carriers are used by bodybuilders to increase systemic abosrption - replace direct blood injection if you will - not something we want for hair.
The phlogel was TOO systemic - you will get strong side effects on RU and little effects on hair. And phogel is a gel - not easy to apply, messy and does not mix well with ethanol that is needed to dilute RU.

There is a japanese company with offices in the US selling the Coatsome empty liposomal carrier..little colored bottles- not sure if they would sell it to individuals. You could try that.

Again, I just wanted to stress that the alchohol mix works fine for hair application even though it might waste some RU . Think of it like a fuel efficient car vs. a gas guzzler - both work for the purpose of motion but the fuel efficient car needs less fuel to get you to the same point.
 

wesleyBelgium

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wat would be the best way to disolve a produkt like ru ? or other substances

say : if your medicine is solid cristals (little balls) and you want to put this in a liposomes cream... how would you do this ?
i would say : disolve the crystals in a little bit of alcohol and mix the liquid medicine in the liposomes cream... the thing is : would the alcohol affect the liposomes cream ?

any sugesstions ?

how would you get the crystals perfect mixed in the cream ?
i dont talk about powder , but hard crystals...
 

chore boy

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I know of a place that could encapsulate it for us but the only problem is that I'd have to order 85 bottles or better yet, 169 bottles for it to not be absurdly expensive. At 169 bottles, the price for a 2% liposomal RU product would be somewhere around $50-$60 (add roughly $7/bottle for the quantity of 85). The price would go down more and more (likely signifigantly), the higher above 169 units we went.

But then there's what El dutasteride said about it being for research and whatnot...
 

el_duterino

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yes that's it. would be nice to try those small bottles. although I supect that it could be quote expensive.

I use cheap ethanol with my RU and I know it works well that way, but perhaps those liposomes might even be better.
 

colin

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If you can confirm that your "place" is a reputable chem lab and so on,I'd be down with ordering 5 or so bottles myself and I'm imagine there are enough interested to fill up the slots for the other 165 bottles we'd have to order.

We'd have to figure out a way to do this though so no one has a chance of getting ripped off for their money though...ideas?

chore boy said:
I know of a place that could encapsulate it for us but the only problem is that I'd have to order 85 bottles or better yet, 169 bottles for it to not be absurdly expensive. At 169 bottles, the price for a 2% liposomal RU product would be somewhere around $50-$60 (add roughly $7/bottle for the quantity of 85). The price would go down more and more (likely signifigantly), the higher above 169 units we went.

But then there's what El dutasteride said about it being for research and whatnot...
 

chore boy

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His credibility isn't in question, for me at least. He did his PhD in nano-technology and worked for a major corporation for a number of years.

The concerns I have are:

1. Legalities. The game changed for me when I decided to incorporate. It would be foolish for me to get involved in the distribution of research materials.

2. Stability. How bad would it suck if we bought a huge batch of RU that was bunk?

3. Formulation. The prices I stated would be for sheer production, not formulation. For me to get him in the lab, I'm looking at a minimum of $1000 per day. It's easy to see how the costs could become unmanageable...
 

hemingway_the_mercenary

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Yup this forum is so sh*t. This should have been done 10 years ago but it seems I am gonna have to be the first one to do this. You can’t make RU in liposomes you have to make ethosomes I will try it and if by chance it’s some miracle I’ll let you know

Just because I’m a good person, but this forum really is a shithole
 

hailbrotzu

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Yup this forum is so sh*t. This should have been done 10 years ago but it seems I am gonna have to be the first one to do this. You can’t make RU in liposomes you have to make ethosomes I will try it and if by chance it’s some miracle I’ll let you know

Just because I’m a good person, but this forum really is a shithole

I agree. I am tired of seeing treatments that were tried but never updated. This or CB should have been hashed out by now but we have people who try things and then leave the forums or try them and after they don't work they leave f*****g all of us over.
 

INT

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Yup this forum is so sh*t. This should have been done 10 years ago but it seems I am gonna have to be the first one to do this. You can’t make RU in liposomes you have to make ethosomes I will try it and if by chance it’s some miracle I’ll let you know

Just because I’m a good person, but this forum really is a shithole

Yes you are Jesus
 
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