scalp DHT or serum DHT

[antonio666]

which is more important in beating hairloss scalp DHT or serum DHT?

 

[dresden]

I think salp DHT. Correct me if im wrong but there is no point on lowering serum DHT only, but unfortunately lowering serum DHT is the only effective way to lower scalp DHT.

 

[CCS]

hair follicle DHT is the most important.

 

[paximperia]

An educated guess would be scalp DHT, but no one really knows. It is possible that DHT is only the precursor to another chemical which causes hair loss. It is possible then that reducing serum DHT could cause an equal or greater effect than lowering scalp DHT. Since DHT Type 2 is present in much higher concentrations in the hair follicles, yet DHT Type 1 still probably has an effect on hair loss (based on testosterone injections in people with a DHT Type 2 deficiency causing hair loss), it's not entirely clear. If you're thinking of applying Finasteride topically, I wouldn't. I doubt that it would be as effective, because the diffusion rates of chemicals through the skin varies tremendously based on the solution it is dissolved in, among other things.

 

[Pondle]

Have there actually been testosterone injection studies on men with 5AR2 deficiency? Are you confusing them with studies on castrated men, which James Hamilton supposedly performed decades ago? We know that 5AR1 has a minimal impact on hair loss, because Merck tested the 5AR1 inhibitor MK-386 on hair growth in macaques and found no effect. There are also rumours of a human trial using MK-386...

 

[paximperia]

"According to Rittmaster, men born with the type I 5-alpha reductase enzyme but without the type II 5-alpha reductase enzyme (the kind DHT blocks) experience hair loss when given Testosterone injections. He believes this shows that the type I enzyme does play a role in hair loss."

http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-remedy ... esults.cfm

However it's only suggestive...

 

[Pondle]

Hmmm, interesting. Doesn't really square with the results of the MK-386 studies!

 

[paximperia]

That's interesting. So maybe the only reason that Avodart [might] work better is because it suppresses more of the Type 2 DHT, and not because it suppresses both? It's also possible that the testosterone itself (or one of the hormones derived from it) caused the hair loss, rather than DHT Type 1. A higher dose of Finasteride might cause fewer side effects with equivalent results?

 

[Pondle]

Yes, the consensus on the forum seems to be that the superior performance of Avodart is due largely to the higher suppression of 5AR2. The relatively flat inhibition curve of finasteride makes a very much higher dose problematic. The law of diminishing marginal returns applies. As for how the T injections caused hair loss, I haven't got a clue! Ordinarily T doesn't cause hair loss, otherwise the 5AR deficient intersexuals would experience male pattern baldness, but they don't.

 

[Bryan]

which is more important in beating hairloss scalp DHT or serum DHT?

The question itself seems confused and ambiguous, since even the serum DHT that _does_ end up affecting hair follicles has to become scalp DHT! That is, it has to go from the blood back into hair follicles, so what really even is the meaning of the question in the first place?

 

[Bryan]

"According to Rittmaster, men born with the type I 5-alpha reductase enzyme but without the type II 5-alpha reductase enzyme (the kind DHT blocks) experience hair loss when given Testosterone injections. He believes this shows that the type I enzyme does play a role in hair loss."

The only problem I have with that claim is that it appears to be completely undocumented. I've read several of the studies dealing with the so-called "pseudohermaphrodites" (I'm talking about the full studies, not just the abstracts), and I have never EVER seen anything about an experiment in which testosterone injections were given to them, and they started losing hair.

On the other hand, there's a section in one of the studies which describes how DHT was given to them (NOT testosterone), and their prostates began to grow, and their hair started to be adversely affected. I can't help but wonder if Rittmaster got his facts screwed-up.

 

[Bryan]

That's interesting. So maybe the only reason that Avodart [might] work better is because it suppresses more of the Type 2 DHT, and not because it suppresses both?

It's probably a little of both.

It's also possible that the testosterone itself (or one of the hormones derived from it) caused the hair loss, rather than DHT Type 1.

If you get the testosterone level high enough, I'm sure it would contribute significantly to hairloss.

A higher dose of Finasteride might cause fewer side effects with equivalent results?

It would be a fascinating experiment to increase the finasteride dose (and frequency of the doses) enough to get a roughly similar inhibition of the type 2 enzyme, just to see how similar the results would be to dutasteride. My guess is that if you started taking a Proscar tablet at least four times a day (evenly scattered throughout the day), you'd probably start to approach a similar level of inhibition. Don't know if you'd get any volunteers for that experiment, though, since people have been led to believe that it's just not reasonable to take more than about 1-5 mg/day of finasteride! :wink:

 

[blaze]

If you get the testosterone level high enough, I'm sure it would contribute significantly to hairloss.

Thats why I think its wise to use a good anti-androgen along with a 5AR inhibitor.

Testosterone isnt nearly as strong as DHT when competing for androgen receptors from I have read. Unfortunately there arent really any good Anti Androgens out there. RU is, but hard to get a hold of for a decent price.

spironolactone looks good on paper.

Flutamide only works systemically.

Fluridill appears to work, but not enough feedback to say for sure.

What else is there to use??

I have just added spironolactone to my Nizoral 1% like CCS. I will shampoo with it once per day and let it sit for 5-10 mins. We will see how it goes.