Scared of propecia sides? Check out sides from another drug

[Rawtashk]

Propecia:
impotence (1.1% to 18.5%)
abnormal ejaculation (7.2%)
decreased ejaculatory volume (0.9% to 2.8%)
abnormal sexual function (2.5%)
gynecomastia (2.2%)
erectile dysfunction (1.3%)
ejaculation disorder (1.2%)
testicular pain.
According to the product package insert, resolution occurred in men who discontinued therapy with finasteride due to these side effects and in most men who continued therapy. In December 2010, Merck added depression as a side effect of finasteride.

Now, there have been reports of people having sexual side effects long after they stopped, but the percentage of those seem to be so low that it wasn't enough to add to the listed sides (yes, I'm sure this will be a great point of argument). That's some pretty scary stuff, right?

Paxil:
nausea (26% on paroxetine vs 9% on placebo)
somnolence (23% vs. 9% on placebo)
ejaculatory disturbance (13% vs. 0% on placebo)
other male genital disorders (10% vs. 0% on placebo)
asthenia (15% vs. 6% on placebo)
sweating (11% vs. 2% on placebo)
dizziness (13% vs. 6% on placebo)
insomnia (13% vs. 6% on placebo)
dry mouth (18% vs. 12% on placebo)
constipation (14% vs. 9% on placebo)
tremor (8% vs. 2% on placebo)
Other side effects include high blood pressure, headache, agitation, weight gain, impaired memory and paresthesia.
Although usually reversible, the sexual side effects can last for months or years after the drug has been completely withdrawn.

Those odds look to be about 10 times higher than what you'd expect with finasteride, yet you don't hear a lot of negative press about Paxil causing sexual sides.

Everyone reacts to things differently. My wife has to wear a platinum ring because she has a gold allergy. That doesn't mean that no one should ever wear gold.
My little bro is allergic to corn products, but that doesn't mean that I can't eat them.

There are 311,334,054 people in the US
There are 6,316,000 car accidents every year in the US
That means every time you drive your car you have a 2% chance of getting in an accident, yet we still drive our cars multiple times every day.
(it's actually probably greater than 2%, since not everyone in the world has a car or drives).

Now, I'm NOT saying that you should throw all caution to the wind. Do your own research, get some baseline tests so you have something to fall back on (you should ALWAYS have a fallback plan with any large life event, hairloss treatments included).

If you want some visual results, then look at my story
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=65594
I'll be happy to answer any question that you throw my way.

Whatever you do, good luck to you in your (our) battle to fight the hairloss!!!!

 

[sandyc]

Check out SSRIs. Some companies have had 100s of court cases against them for sexual disorders, permanent impotence, suicide etc etc.

 

[Ende]

A SSRI is a f*****g stupid approach to treating a depression to begin with, but hey, we live in a world where they'll prescribe anything the pharmaceutical companies are marketing heavily - to take care of a symptom, without giving a second thought to the actual cause. General depression should, IMO, be treated by changing the perspective with thoughts. Depressants (like benzodiazepines), and perhaps narcotics (opioids), should be prescribed, and available as a "rescue medication" - when things get out of control.

 

[Wuffer]

Good post.

I agree, SSRI’s are basically dolloped out like candy. You can simply go to your doctor, say: “I want x antidepressant†and you will get it. finasteride does require some serious consideration, but if you are going to go on an SSRI, there is a much, much larger risk of problems. I experienced them firsthand…

I was on over a dozen different SSRI’s over the course of like 5-7 years in my early 20’s. On most of these, I experienced symptoms that were worse than the depression and anxiety I was dealing with. Many of them completely wrecked my sex drive. I’m talking absolutely nothing; no erections, no libido, nothing for weeks or months at a time. I experienced most of the other symptoms you mentioned, mainly the gastrointestinal ones. The final one I went on was Wellbutrin, which was the best tolerated. But I started building a resistance to it, and after a few years, I was on something like 4x the maximum recommended dosage. After I decided to come off due to side effects (not to mention I was sitting at something like a 20 x increased risk of seizures), I experienced horrible withdrawal symptoms. Extreme anxiety and agitation were the bulk of it, but it lasted almost a month.

Anyway, I was able to overcome my problems with some simple cognitive therapies, which worked ten times better than any of the SSRI’s did. I’m glad the SSRI’s didn’t cause any permanent problems, but I personally know two guys that did experience persistent issues on SSRI’s.

I think for some people, SSRI’s might be a necessary approach. Some people do have a chemical imbalance that must be treated with meds, but I believe most people can be treated or even cured from therapy.

Benzo’s are extremely effective, but they are also extremely dangerous. If it comes to you needing to take these, make sure it’s done under close doctor supervision. My aunt went on Benzo’s and experienced withdrawal symptoms for months. She was a complete mess; it’s scary stuff.

This is an example of what the symptoms are like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDbPnAQ-c1o

I Digress… finasteride definitely isn’t for everyone, but it’s safe for the vast majority of guys. It definitely requires some careful consideration.

 

[Ende]

Does that happen? It seems more like he has tourette. I've never tried benzo's myself, but from what I've read, the effects are similar to alcohol. My choice would have been opiates anyway.

 

[Wuffer]

Opiates have their own problems as well, but they are a better choice over Benzo's.

Benzo's are really a last option treatment, since they are extremely effective for severe anxiety, but they can only be used in short burts, and not continually. I believe the guy on that video was on them for a long time (years). The symptoms he had were simply from withdrawal. They can last for months or years depending on the length of use and amount of dependence.

It's really scary stuff; this guy will probably be like that for at least a year, then a few years later will have other extreme symptoms until he has recovered. It's bad because they are such effective medications, people will stay on them for way longer than they should. Then they face the withdrawal symptoms, which are commonly described as ten times worse than getting off Heroin.

But yeah, taking these drugs should only be considered by guys that have tried literally everything else, and have no other options. If you do decide to start on them, only do so under direct doctor supervision.

 

[Zukias]

A SSRI is a f****ing stupid approach to treating a depression to begin with, but hey, we live in a world where they'll prescribe anything the pharmaceutical companies are marketing heavily - to take care of a symptom, without giving a second thought to the actual cause. General depression should, IMO, be treated by changing the perspective with thoughts. Depressants (like benzodiazepines), and perhaps narcotics (opioids), should be prescribed, and available as a "rescue medication" - when things get out of control.

Have to agree there. I tried SSRI's shortly after starting uni because I was finding it hard to cope with the drastic changes, but it made things a lot worse, it gave me a "f*** it." attitude, couldn't be bothered to do anything - lost all motivation, and failed the year. NEVER going on anti depressants again.

 

[Zukias]

There are 311,334,054 people in the US
There are 6,316,000 car accidents every year in the US
That means every time you drive your car you have a 2% chance of getting in an accident, yet we still drive our cars multiple times every day.
(it's actually probably greater than 2%, since not everyone in the world has a car or drives).

it would be 2% if it was 6,316,000 accidents per day (assuming everyone drives once per day) , but its per year

 

[Rawtashk]

I should probably change it to "You have a 2% chance of getting in a car wreck every year". But, if you have a 2% chance of it happening in a year, then technically every time you get in your car you take the chance that it's happening that trip.

 

[Mens Rea]

Sorry man i appreciate you are trying to ease some minds but this is a bit of a redundant philsophy in my eyes.


Very few other drugs can cause such unexplained, persistent and complex damage. The ones that do are either on special licence, have been taken of the market or, at very least, come with strict warnings and demand excellent health supervision.

finasteride/dutasteride is causing mayhem with guys' adrenals, thyroids, sex hormones generally. The sad thing is this is only scratching the surface in many cases. It's difficult to explain the profound mental torture some guys have experienced not to mention things like muscle wastage etc.

EXPERTS are at a loss to explain how my penis tissue has changed. How i had shooting pains in my penis. How many PFS sufferers seem immune to any level of TRT etc etc.

SO: finasteride/dutasteride can (lets not talk about percentages) give you a condition that the medical work knows very, very little about. Urologists don't have a clue. Most endos will be out of their depth too. GP's will tell most patients they can't help. Many doctors won't even believe the guys.

Ultimately the complex mechanisms of finasteride/dutasteride are largely poorly understood. The cross relation between the HPTA, liver, prostrate, the brain and the nervous system is something science today is very much behind with.

It has just been found out that there seems to be a THIRD alpha-reductase (5ARIII) which finasteride also inhibits. Not to mention 5ARII is responsible for much more than conversion to DHT.

So, it's not necessarily about percentages. It's about what the drugs used for, what the label says, how it's prescribed to the patients and how any side effects can be treated. Ultimately every single one of that criteria exposes massive issues that need addressed urgently.

 

[Mens Rea]

It has just been found out that there seems to be a THIRD alpha-reductase (5ARIII) which finasteride also inhibits. Not to mention 5ARII is responsible for much more than conversion to DHT.

Good post BTW, also I'm interested in that, where did you learn/read that?

Here:

http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt ... =27&t=4892

Courtesy of "TryNotToWorrys's" exceptional research and hardwork.

Hence his recommended "Dolichol supplement" via spinach. He has fully recovered (so far) from taking it. Amazing stuff.

A few others are finding improvements too. I'm going to try it.

The main thing is the 5ARIII though. Have a read.

 

[Wuffer]

finasteride, add '.com' to the end of 'www.propeciahelp'

However, it still doesn't work unless you are a member. From what i've heard, Mew is blocking access to these threads by unregistered guests. This thread and the other one about the guy recovering by treating prostatitis. Someone on Dr. Crislers forum said that he's blocking these threads because he believes taking a non-hormonal treatment approach to PFS is useless, and that it may threaten the ongoing lawsuits.

I'm not sure if what he said is true, but if it is, that's complete bullsh*t.

Anyway Mens, i'm interested in reading that too. Could you paste that guys thread in here?

 

[Mens Rea]

EDIT: The link was broke, could you fix it? Thanks!

The link does work, you just need to be a member. If you aren't i can send you some info later, man.

 

[Mens Rea]

Ok there's a serious lot to it. I'm not prepared to steal all his stuff, here is an extract from a study:

Human type 3 5?-reductase is expressed in peripheral tissues at higher levels than types 1 and 2 and its activity is potently inhibited by finasteride and dutasteride

We found that SRD5a-3 is highly sensitive to finasteride and dutasteride and shows similar sensitivity as SRD5a-2 for finasteride, while it is much more sensitive to dutasteride. The enzyme is highly expressed in the human skin, brain, mammary gland and breast cancer cells. Our data strongly suggest that SRD5a-3 could be the main enzyme responsible for 5areductase activity, previously believed to be associated with SRD5a-1, in many tissues and cell lines.

http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/de-gruyter/h ... kRent=true








and the Dolichol link...

We found that SRD5A3 is necessary for the reduction of the alpha-isoprene unit of polyprenols to form dolichols, required for synthesis of dolichol-linked monosaccharides, and the oligosaccharide precursor used for N-glycosylation. The presence of residual dolichol in cells depleted for this enzyme suggests the existence of an unexpected alternative pathway for dolichol de novo biosynthesis. Our results thus suggest that SRD5A3 is likely to be the long-sought polyprenol reductase and reveal the genetic basis of one of the earliest steps in protein N-linked glycosylation.

and

We found that SRD5A3 is necessary for the reduction of the alpha-isoprene unit of polyprenols to form dolichols, required for synthesis of dolichol-linked monosaccharides, and the oligosaccharide precursor used for N-glycosylation. The presence of residual dolichol in cells depleted for this enzyme suggests the existence of an unexpected alternative pathway for dolichol de novo biosynthesis. Our results thus suggest that SRD5A3 is likely to be the long-sought polyprenol reductase and reveal the genetic basis of one of the earliest steps in protein N-linked glycosylation...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20637498


There is MUCH more but it's not my place to take it, guys.

 

[Wuffer]

Thanks for posting what you did man. Definitely interesting stuff

So this Dolichol chemical can be extracted from Spinach? I assume by boiling, similarly to how DIM is extracted from Broccoli?

I'm sure it tastes awful, but i'm interested to hear if it helps you with your symptoms.

 

[Mens Rea]

Thanks for posting what you did man. Definitely interesting stuff

So this Dolichol chemical can be extracted from Spinach? I assume by boiling, similarly to how DIM is extracted from Broccoli?

I'm sure it tastes awful, but i'm interested to hear if it helps you with your symptoms.

You simply eat the spinach.

As for Dolichol, it's found in other things too, its difficult to extract so no supplements are yet readily available (there is one but its hard to find and VERY expensive). So spinach it is.

I'm not sure how Dim is extracted.

Im itnerested too. It'll take a month. I'll keep you updated

 

[Ende]

The long term results will probably be more ruined lives, suicides and lawsuits.

 

[Wuffer]

So basically what's going on is finasteride inhibits this SRD5A3 enzyme, which is responsible for converting Polyprenol into Dolichol?

I'm not sure what function Dolichol has in the body, but if your body has an enzyme that's sole function is to create it, then inhibiting it for any period of time could definitely cause some problems for some guys.

Very interesting stuff. I'm going to read up on this. Keep us posted, Mens.

I hope you like eating spinach

 

[Wuffer]

BTW is the supplement called Ropren? Apparently that's a new medication coming out of Russia that supplements Dolichol, and is used to treat some mental disorders and liver problems. One website said Dolichol is found in high quantities in the testicles... The dude on propeciahelp that figured all this out is one smart cookie. I didn't even know a 5AR Type-3 existed.

 

[powersam]

A SSRI is a f****ing stupid approach to treating a depression to begin with

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas ... head_fake/