The effects of diet on Propecia side effects

[ringring]

I just started taking Propecia and I've been reading up on the possible side effects and the mechanisms behind them to see if they could be prevented somehow. The majority opinion seems to be that they're caused by a shift in the androgen/estrogen balance in favor of estrogen. Following that lead I stumbled upon this study. It concerns the difference in the amount of excreted estrogen via the intestine between vegetarian and omnivorous women. I'll post the abstract.

Fecal, urinary, and plasma estrogens and plasma androgens
were studied in healthy pre- and postmenopausal vegetarian
and omnivorous women. Dietary histories of the subjects re
vealed that omnivores consumed a higher percentage of total
protein and fat from animal sources. The total 72-hr fecal
excretion as measured by dry weight was higher for vegetar
ians. Preliminary results indicate that vegetarian women ex
crete 2 to 3 times more estrogens in feces than do omnivores
and that omnivores have about 50% higher mean plasma level
of unconjugated estrone and estradial than vegetarians. Estriol
3-glucuronide, a compound that is formed upon reabsorption
of free estriol from the intestine, is found in lower concentra
tions in the urine of vegetarians. These data suggest that in
vegetarians a greater amount of the biliary estrogens escape
reabsorptionand are excretedwith the feces.The differences
In estrogen metabolismmay explain the lower incidence of
breast cancer in vegetarian women.

If you read the whole study (it's 4 pages, please do) the blood levels of estrogens are significantly lower in vegetarian women, and at the same time the blood levels of androgen are higher (not significantly though, in the statistical sense) Now, this study was conducted on a group of women so I'll agree that it's not perfectly relevant to most Propecia-user. But the excretion mechanism of estrogen via the intestine is as far as I know identical in women and men so the results might very well be true in the case of men as well.

What do you think, might a vegetarian diet be an effective way of preventing Propecia sides? Did I misunderstand the details of this study? Also, this study talks about 'unconjugated estrogen'. What's the difference between unconjugated and conjugated estrogens? Is it relevant? Please discuss.

 

[Wuffer]

The thing about this is Soy is a main staple in most vegetarian diets and is linked to increased estrogen levels in both men and women. Since it is a main source of protein for vegetarians, it's a bit counter intuitive to think estrogen levels would decrease.

I'm not personally convinced estrogen alone is the only reason sides happen on finasteride. It might be the case, but nobody really knows. If estrogen is indeed the cause, there are supplements that have been shown to work well at decreasing it, including Diindolylmethane.

I think it's more important to focus on other known contributing factors to sexual problems, namely tobacco and alcohol. Also, exercise is shown to give a huge boost to libido and erectile function.

Also, I tried a vegetarian diet for a few months (one of my exes was a vegan) and I felt like complete sh*t 24/7. I would rather be completely bald or live with sexual sides from finasteride rather than have to put up with that again!

 

[kehcorpz]

I'm not a vegeterian but my diet rarely has meat unless I go out to a restaurant. My main sources of complete protein are buckwheat, soy beans and yogurt. Vegeterian diets have a lot of phytoestrogens which are in plants. Now, soy beans also have these phytoestrogens. While soy may increase estrogen levels it is not harmful as it also keeps estrogen from binding to receptor sites, this is why you see the increase in circulating estrogen. This is due to the fact that phytoestrogens act as weak binders to estrogen receptors. They are considered partial agonists. They will bind to the estrogen receptor and invoke a much weaker response than if estrogen was bound to it. But because its binding to these receptors it keeps estrogen from binding to them. This could account for the estrogen being excreted in the tests. I think the side effects attained from propecia are a little more complex than this. It is likely that estrogen levels do go up beyond the 15% that merck tested in those that are affected. But I think the bigger issue is that those affected by side effects get a drop in testosterone and a higher conversion rate to estrogen. You may minimize the effects by eating more phytoestrogens but it will not stop bioavailable testosterone from dropping as phytoestrogens do not inhibit aromatase. So you may piss out the estrogens that were converted from testosterone but testosterone will still be low. And meat diets are likely to bring testosterone levels up due to the saturated fat content among other things. But then aromatase snatches it up quickly, thus creating a vicious cycle.

 

[wstef]

Soy gets a bad name. Although I don't have a reference to it, I read a study that men had something like 50g of soy protein daily and there was absolutely no difference in their oestrogen or testosterone levels. I believe that phytoestrogens mimic oestrogen by bonding to receptors, but is their effect the same as actual oestrogen?

I am not a vegetarian but I pretty much only eat fish and chicken, and even then that's not too often. I might have the occasional burger at a barbecue or something, but nothing too often.

I posted this in the side effects forum, but I was looking around online for the effects of too much oestrogen in men and landed on quite a lot of reports on body building forums, usually where men are taking testosterone or boosters, and suffering more conversion of T to oestrogen. Surprisingly, the side effects I found were quite similar to those of the side effects of finasteride. I found this interesting because I always assumed the side effects were caused by the reduction of DHT.

I have a theory that if men work out and exercise more when taking finasteride the side effects will go, or be lessened... so I am going to try it. I have always planned on working out properly but I never get motivated. I guess this is motivation enough (I like sex!)

The only side I have is reduced sensation and it takes me longer to reach orgasm unless I really concentrate and practically force it, which isn't ideal so I am looking at how to improve it - any ideas?

 

[LawOfThelema]

Soy gets a bad name. Although I don't have a reference to it, I read a study that men had something like 50g of soy protein daily and there was absolutely no difference in their oestrogen or testosterone levels. I believe that phytoestrogens mimic oestrogen by bonding to receptors, but is their effect the same as actual oestrogen?

http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(09)00966-2/abstract

Systematic reviews of the literature shows it doesn't lower testosterone, or increase estrogen. Phytoestrogens can bind to estrogen receptors and exert some estrogenic effects in the body. Most research points to soy having protective health effects. I'd stick with organic whole food sources of course. The refined soy meals and soya oils are another ballgame. Taking finasteride youd do well to take soy for it's assocation with reduced incidence of prostate cancer. Take with green tea and the effect is synergistic.

You should be working out or exercising daily in some form whether taking finasteride or not. People who dont exercise regularly have health problems that only compound as they age. I would not be surprised if exercising regularly can exert a protective effect against side effects as well.