The Ultimate Stack For Fighting Hairloss (2018)

[westonci]

https://i.imgur.com/m8otWQI.png

 

[IdealForehead]

Just lol at calling it the "ultimate stack" when the androgen receptor antagonist is RU58841, one of the weakest in the entire class. CB is even weaker than RU.

See strength comparison of androgen receptor antagonists here:
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...conversion-of-ru58841-to-darolutamide.109065/

Also you have no estrogen (ER-beta) signalling, are neglecting topical antihistamines (which reduce PGD2 among many other inflammatory mediators), and aren't including minoxidil, which while "ugly", is still the best proven growth stimulant.

 

[westonci]

Just lol at calling it the "ultimate stack" when the androgen receptor antagonist is RU58841, one of the weakest in the entire class. CB is even weaker than RU.

See strength comparison of androgen receptor antagonists here:
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...conversion-of-ru58841-to-darolutamide.109065/

Also you have no estrogen (ER-beta) signalling, are neglecting topical antihistamines (which reduce PGD2 among many other inflammatory mediators), and aren't including minoxidil, which while "ugly", is still the best proven growth stimulant.

http://i.imgur.com/PqlrfPY.png

heres the original pic. Can you edit it to make the ultimate stack.

also how safe is Darolutamide?

also I should have mentioned, I wasnt including growth factors i.e minoxidil, pge2, bimaprost.

More for preventing hairloss

 

[TK421]

Tried finasteride for 11 months with no results. Going to try and attack from a different angle and look into oral seti (would like to start with 1 gram/day). I know the stuff is expensive but I'm hoping it can at least help me maintain until something more effective becomes available.

 

[sunchyme1]

1g a day of seti isnt even that expensive.

uk is 25 quid a week

i spend more money on vodka man

 

[Endmymisery]

Just lol at calling it the "ultimate stack" when the androgen receptor antagonist is RU58841, one of the weakest in the entire class. CB is even weaker than RU.

See strength comparison of androgen receptor antagonists here:
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...conversion-of-ru58841-to-darolutamide.109065/

Also you have no estrogen (ER-beta) signalling, are neglecting topical antihistamines (which reduce PGD2 among many other inflammatory mediators), and aren't including minoxidil, which while "ugly", is still the best proven growth stimulant.

RU made my hair thinner than before dramatically. Fuc that sh*t

 

[Fleece Johnson]

just eat pumpkin seeds and sip on that green tea 24/7 and you will be fine

 

[IdealForehead]

http://i.imgur.com/PqlrfPY.png

heres the original pic. Can you edit it to make the ultimate stack.

also I should have mentioned, I wasnt including growth factors i.e minoxidil, pge2, bimaprost.

More for preventing hairloss

I don't think that diagram is sufficiently complex to allow for it to illustrate the "ultimate stack". That diagram is a marketing gimmick for seti. It doesn't remotely encompass how complex hair loss is.

But if you want to put together a nuclear "kitchen sink" approach, with the strongest agent from every class, while still controlling side effects to possibly tolerable levels, this would be it in my opinion...

ULTIMATE HAIR LOSS AGENTS BY CLASS

• Androgen Receptor Antagonist
  • Mechanism: Blocks DHT and testosterone from binding to androgen receptors
  • Agent: Topical Darolumatide
  • Rationale: Strongest medication in the entire drug class, does not cross blood brain barrier, topical use focuses effect at the scalp and should reduce systemic side effects
• 5-AR Inhibitor
  • Mechanism: Reduces DHT levels by blocking 5-AR enzyme
  • Agent: Dutasteride
  • Rationale: Reduces serum DHT by 95%
• Anti-Histamine
  • Mechanism: Decreases PGD2 as well as many other downstream inflammatory mediators triggered by androgen binding, likely should help male pattern baldness itch
  • Agent: Topical Desloratadine
  • Rationale: Cetirizine has better evidence but has potential stability problems in ethanol based solutions
• PGD2 Inhibitor
  • Mechanism: Blocks PGD2 which is one downstream mediator of inflammation triggered by androgen binding
  • Agent: Oral Setipiprant
  • Rationale: No published evidence for any drug in this class yet exists, but at least we have some field reports from people trying oral seti that have noticed benefits, and it seems to be safe so far.
• Estrogen
  • Mechanism: ER-beta stimulation has many positive effects in the skin and can prolong anagen of hair follicles
  • Agent: Topical Estriol
  • Rationale: Estriol has the greatest ER-beta predominance of all natural estrogens. Topical administration avoids excessive liver metabolism, reducing risks, and allows the effect to be focused at the scalp.
• Prostaglandin Stimulant
  • Mechanism: Manipulation of prostaglandin signalling, particularly towards PGE2 can promote hair growth through inflammation
  • Agent: Oral Minoxidil
  • Rationale: Minoxidil is the best proven growth stimulant on the planet. Topical concentrations are limited to 5% traditionally due to poor solubility. Oral dosing allows greater delivery to the follicles, but with more side effects and risks.
• Stem Cell Stimulant
  • Mechanism: Wounding in combination with growth stimulants triggers a stem cell response which leads to follicle neogenesis.
  • Agent: PRP
  • Rationale: PRP combines traditional wounding with the injection of natural growth stimulants from your own centrifuged blood and has good published evidence
• Tension Reducer
  • Mechanism: Therapies to reduce scalp tension reduce tension-mediated androgenic inflammation and improve blood flow to the scalp
  • Agent: Botox
  • Rationale: Two sessions of scalp muscle Botox spaced 6 months apart gave equal results to finasteride by 1 year in one published study

 

[IdealForehead]

Also i should note i have personally used 6/8 of these "ultimates". Botox and seti are the only two i haven't tried.

I am currently using 3 - daro, desloratadine, and estriol, plus niacinamide which i can't list as an "ultimate" as it's just an adjunct.

But that is a risk I am choosing to take for myself. These are generally unproven and untested theoretical treatments for hair loss.

 

[westonci]

Also i should note i have personally used 6/8 of my "ultimates". Botox and seti are the only two i haven't tried.

I am currently using 3 - daro, desloratadine, and estriol, plus niacinamide which i can't list as an "ultimate" as it's just an adjunct.

How are the results and what are the sides if any?

 

[Alex Contee]

Also i should note i have personally used 6/8 of my "ultimates". Botox and seti are the only two i haven't tried.

I am currently using 3 - daro, desloratadine, and estriol, plus niacinamide which i can't list as an "ultimate" as it's just an adjunct.

What prompted you to go with desloratadine over cetirizine?

 

[IdealForehead]

What prompted you to go with desloratadine over cetirizine?

Lol. It says right in the sentence after the word desloratadine: "Rationale: Cetirizine has better evidence but has potential stability problems in ethanol based solutions".

This has been discussed in other threads. Also lotadatine is a pro drug and must be converted to desloratadine in the liver to work.

So desloratadine which is alcohol stable and highly soluble seemed like the best agent.

 

[fuDHTck]

Are you a chemist Ideal or something?

Also, are you not getting sides?

EDIT: Could you post some pics too of your hair?

 

[IdealForehead]

How are the results and what are the sides if any?

My only side effect is from daro which at the high doses I am using (6 mg per day total) gives me dry eyes. I plan to cut the dose to 4 mg per day once I add some estriol and/or equol to my mix.

I have no reason to believe I need 6 mg per day of daro. I'm just afraid to drop the dose since I'm doing so well. This is the max i can tolerate so i'm continuing to blast it as long as i can.

I had thinning to the nw3 depth when I started 6 months ago. Within a month or two that thickened up and i saw new vellus growth up to my nw1. After 2-3 months of Telogen Effluvium, all my hair stopped falling out completely. I no longer shed any amount of noticeable hair (i can observe maybe 10 hairs a day). I am shedding less hair than when i was a teenager before i started even balding. My existing hair is thick and healthy.

I just had a forehead reduction where my early nw2 zones were largely removed during the process so i no longer have the same hairline as i used to have and can no longer easily judge for further improvements. I don't think i likely would have grown back a thick nw1 but i will now never know for sure.

Either way, at this point i now have a stable nw1 head of hair, with an approximate 30% reduction in density from my body's likely natural max due to the stretching of the scalp that was required to remove 5 cm of forehead during surgery.

I'm quite happy overall.

Daro may pose silent androgen deprivation side risks like to fertility and bone density long term. There may be many unknowns. It has never been studied for hair loss. My experience shouldn't be generalized to anyone else's. Everyone is different.

I had skin aging side effects from minoxidil due to its anti-collagen effect and plus i didnt want it in me when healing from surgery so i cut it out a month ago and haven't looked back. Hair remains perfectly stable.

 

[IdealForehead]

Are you a chemist Ideal or something?

Also, are you not getting sides?

No, this is not my field. But I consider myself resourceful and highly motivated. I cannot go bald. I would become very depressed if i did. So i have had to find a way to stop the loss.

I have spent thousands of hours researching hair, hair drugs, hair surgeries, and the biology of hair loss.

I was forced to become more inventive after finasteride, dutasteride, minoxidil, and RU all failed me.

I would love to post some pictures even just to show off my beautiful new head of hair and hairline from surgery but I am extremely paranoid. On this forum I spend a lot of time talking about a lot of personal things like my failures with women and what it was like to grow up and spend my life as a short/ugly man. I used to hang out on 4chan at one time, so i have seen how little some people need sometimes to identify and "dox" someone. I am paranoid by nature. I don't to add that extra worry even if it's improbable. So I am restraining myself. I like being able to post here knowing I can speak freely.

In any case, you shouldn't judge the quality of any treatment regimen from any one person. Some people are hyperresponders to minoxidil for example and can grow 1-2 norwoods just with that. Doesn't mean you can expect that.

Try to look at the science, evidence, and risks and see if different things make sense.

 

[Alex Contee]

Thank you Ideal. That’s what I get for posting when I am still half asleep. Looked back and you spelled it out well here for others that are curious: https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/degradation-of-cetirizine-in-alcohol-vehicles.66061/

The rational for the potential stability issues seems sound. I am sure you have seen this, but it’s intersting that this study used ethanol: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28604133

 

[sunchyme1]

@IdealForehead hey man i just saw your post in the estrogen thread about maybe adding it to your current topical with all your other stuff

how do you know mixing all these different agents in one topical doesnt compromise the effectiveness of them? obviously it makes it easier to keep up with using so many things by sticking them altogether. but with so many things in one mix i would worry about them reacting with each other or something

 

[IdealForehead]

@IdealForehead hey man i just saw your post in the estrogen thread about maybe adding it to your current topical with all your other stuff

how do you know mixing all these different agents in one topical doesnt compromise the effectiveness of them? obviously it makes it easier to keep up with using so many things by sticking them altogether. but with so many things in one mix i would worry about them reacting with each other or something

I would guess that these compounds shouldn't react. They have pretty stable structures. But that is why I prefer to keep my active ingredient count under 5 at all times. Currently I just have 3 active ingredients. One can never be 100% sure.

 

[Xander94]

@sunchyme1 mount Etna

 

[bluecyclone]

RU made my hair thinner than before dramatically. Fuc that sh*t

Hey quick question about your experience with RU. I started thinning and shedding a week in. I’m afraid to stop and make it worse. What happened when you stopped?