This site scares the crap out of me.

[youngbaldie]

http://www.propeciahelp.com/

Talks about premature ageing, wrinkling, bags under eyes, vision problems. They even cite scientific journals to back up their points.

http://finasteride.jconserv.net/viewtopic.php?t=659

Is this site for real? The FDA has said nothing about these side effects, so I am skeptical.

One 22 year old on there says that after a year on propecia his face has aged like 10 years and he has all of these fine lines and wrinkles.

They say its because lack of DHT wrinkles the skin. Their argument is that DHT is absolutely essential for youthful skin. Is this true?

 

[Hans Gruber]

well,ive been on finasteride for 21 months and i havent got any more lines/wrinkles......the best thing to do is just wait and see,if you think that a year down the line you look aged or you have side effects,get off finasteride.


you should be fine though

 

[Pondle]

http://www.propeciahelp.com/

Talks about premature ageing, wrinkling, bags under eyes, vision problems. They even cite scientific journals to back up their points.

http://finasteride.jconserv.net/viewtopic.php?t=659

Is this site for real? The FDA has said nothing about these side effects, so I am skeptical.

One 22 year old on there says that after a year on propecia his face has aged like 10 years and he has all of these fine lines and wrinkles.

They say its because lack of DHT wrinkles the skin. Their argument is that DHT is absolutely essential for youthful skin. Is this true?

Hmmm, dry eyes as a result of androgen deficiency? Well... maybe. But on this basis women are far more at risk of dry eyes than men, given that they have a hell of a lot less DHT - in adults, basal T and DHT are 5–50
times higher in men. 8) And in my experience, most young women manage fine and do not have dry eye syndrome!

[BTW, I actually have dry eyes. The condition developed well before I started taking Propecia, it was originally related to laser eye surgery I had in 2002].

Some contributors to the Propeciahelp site spread unfounded scare stories, others misread - perhaps purposely - some of the scientific literature.

For example, people shouldn't extrapolate the findings of studies which gave rodents HUGE doses (like 50mg/kg/day) to human patients who take 1mg - 5mg/day. That kind of thinking is just crazy.

 

[V225]

I have also reed this site.
The truth is that made me considering to quit finasteride(i am 5 months on it)
I really dont know what to do.I found it risky to continue taking that drug for years.My only other solution is surgeries the only 100% truth solution for the problem.I reed in that site that someone hade teribble problems with his libido,and an other one made tits.
OK i just dont know what to do.Before i see this site i was thinking that finasteride is a gift from the god of science.Now i know that is something that has a lot of risk even if we dont like to see it tha way the truth is that out there are people with very bud experiences on this drug.So do i have to take that risk?Please help i just have no idea what is better to do.continue taking finasteride with a great risk for my sexuall helth or stop taking finasteride and continue loosing my hair?

 

[person]

http://www.propeciahelp.com/

Talks about premature ageing, wrinkling, bags under eyes, vision problems. They even cite scientific journals to back up their points.

http://finasteride.jconserv.net/viewtopic.php?t=659

Is this site for real? The FDA has said nothing about these side effects, so I am skeptical.

One 22 year old on there says that after a year on propecia his face has aged like 10 years and he has all of these fine lines and wrinkles.

They say its because lack of DHT wrinkles the skin. Their argument is that DHT is absolutely essential for youthful skin. Is this true?

Hmmm, dry eyes as a result of androgen deficiency? Well... maybe. But on this basis women are far more at risk of dry eyes than men, given that they have a hell of a lot less DHT - in adults, basal T and DHT are 5–50
times higher in men. 8) And in my experience, most young women manage fine and do not have dry eye syndrome!

[BTW, I actually have dry eyes. The condition developed well before I started taking Propecia, it was originally related to laser eye surgery I had in 2002].

Some contributors to the Propeciahelp site spread unfounded scare stories, others misread - perhaps purposely - some of the scientific literature.

For example, people shouldn't extrapolate the findings of studies which gave rodents HUGE doses (like 50mg/kg/day) to human patients who take 1mg - 5mg/day. That kind of thinking is just crazy.

I hear what you are saying but I remember your discussion with 'Mew' in the side-effects forum and his remonstration was under the lines of it doesn't make a difference whether you have a 1mg does or a 50mg does - the damage will still be done. He then backed it up with some study. Your provided no counter argument instead you both started slagging each other off and then sort of agreed to disagree. I am not saying finasteride is bad or good - I am simply not knowledgable enough to comment however the user 'Mew' who is a prominent member of propeciahelp and has a few posts here seems extremely well educated and I just hope he is wrong.

 

[Pondle]

I hear what you are saying but I remember your discussion with 'Mew' in the side-effects forum and his remonstration was under the lines of it doesn't make a difference whether you have a 1mg does or a 50mg does - the damage will still be done. He then backed it up with some study. Your provided no counter argument instead you both started slagging each other off and then sort of agreed to disagree. I am not saying finasteride is bad or good - I am simply not knowledgable enough to comment however the user 'Mew' who is a prominent member of propeciahelp and has a few posts here seems extremely well educated and I just hope he is wrong.

Actually I did provide a counter-argument, which you'll see if you go back and read my posts. :roll: We did manage to set aside our initial childish minsunderstanding and have a sensible conversation, but Mew didn't respond to my final post.

The essence of Mews argument was the claim that 50mg/kg/day in rats would have exactly the same results as 1mg/day or 5mg/day in humans, on the basis that the DHT inhibition and other effects would be the same. I disagree fundamentally with these propositions:
a. As Bryan keeps on pointing out, the finasteride inhibition curve is nearly flat, but not totally flat (I posted the Merck dose ranging study to make the point).
b. Even considering a range of very high doses in animal models, effects seem to change if you adminster progressively more finasteride. There's a study on PubMed demonstrating this- http://tinyurl.com/22sc77 Notice how the finasteride-induced changes are worst in the groups exposed to the highest doses.

One thing to remember about the guys on Propeciahelp.com is that many of them have a Merck-bashing agenda and very tendentious arguments. I'm no biochemist or physician and many posters on here have much more knowledge than me, but I do try to think things through logically and offer a balanced view. I hate bias and I hate scare-mongering.

At the end of the day, regulatory authorities across the world have licensed finasteride, it has a 15 year record of safe use and there is a clear biological model for its effects (intersexuals with 5AR2 deficiency).

 

[person]

I hear what you are saying but I remember your discussion with 'Mew' in the side-effects forum and his remonstration was under the lines of it doesn't make a difference whether you have a 1mg does or a 50mg does - the damage will still be done. He then backed it up with some study. Your provided no counter argument instead you both started slagging each other off and then sort of agreed to disagree. I am not saying finasteride is bad or good - I am simply not knowledgable enough to comment however the user 'Mew' who is a prominent member of propeciahelp and has a few posts here seems extremely well educated and I just hope he is wrong.

Actually I did provide a counter-argument, which you'll see if you go back and read my posts. :roll: We did manage to set aside our initial childish minsunderstanding and have a sensible conversation, but Mew didn't respond to my final post.

The essence of Mews argument was the claim that 50mg/kg/day in rats would have exactly the same results as 1mg/day or 5mg/day in humans, on the basis that the DHT inhibition and other effects would be the same. I disagree fundamentally with these propositions:
a. As Bryan keeps on pointing out, the finasteride inhibition curve is nearly flat, but not totally flat (I posted the Merck dose ranging study to make the point).
b. Even considering a range of very high doses in animal models, effects seem to change if you adminster progressively more finasteride. There's a study on PubMed demonstrating this- http://tinyurl.com/22sc77 Notice how the finasteride-induced changes are worst in the groups exposed to the highest doses.

One thing to remember about the guys on Propeciahelp.com is that many of them have a Merck-bashing agenda and very tendentious arguments. I'm no biochemist or physician and many posters on here have much more knowledge than me, but I do try to think things through logically and offer a balanced view. I hate bias and I hate scare-mongering.

At the end of the day, regulatory authorities across the world have licensed finasteride, it has a 15 year record of safe use and there is a clear biological model for its effects (intersexuals with 5AR2 deficiency).

In regards to point 'a' showing that the inhibition curve is not flat does not directly prove that other serious side-effects will not occur and in point 'b' it doesn't neccessarily prove that small dosages will not eventually give these unwanted side-effects such as wrinkled skin. It just shows that a higher dosage will increase the chances of this occuring.

 

[Pondle]

In regards to point 'a' showing that the inhibition curve is not flat does not directly prove that other serious side-effects will not occur

You miss the point. Drug safety and efficacy is often related to dosage. 50mg/kg/day in rats is NOT the same as 1mg/day or 5mg/day in humans. To argue this is just silly. The onus is on you to prove toxicity at the lower dose. In science we seek to disprove the null hypothesis.

and in point 'b' it doesn't neccessarily prove that small dosages will not eventually give these unwanted side-effects such as wrinkled skin. It just shows that a higher dosage will increase the chances of this occuring.

I've seen no clinical studies indicating that finasteride at the normal dosages can cause premature ageing in humans. Women have 5-50 times less T and DHT than men and there doesn't seem to be a massive difference between the sexes in the onset of wrinkles. The variation between individuals is probably more important than the difference between men and women.

If you want to avoid premature skin ageing, you should avoid UV exposure as much as you can. One source says that >80% of observable skin ageing is attributable to cumulative UV exposure.

 

[person]

I say you and Mew have another face-ff instead of exchanging pleasantries.

 

[Pondle]

I say you and Mew have another face-ff instead of exchanging pleasantries.

You brought it up, person 8)

The bottom line is, if you or Mew or anyone else isn't comfortable with Propecia, don't take it. It's just a lifestyle drug. You're not treating an illness. You might be one of those guys who look good bald.

 

[youngbaldie]

Women have 5-50 times less T and DHT than men and there doesn't seem to be a massive difference between the sexes in the onset of wrinkles.

Thats a very good point actually. Puts my mind at ease more.

 

[RaginDemon]

there are ALOT of cry babies online...and you just need to learn how to cope with them.