To end the generic dutasteride debate...

[arrogantprick]

PLEASE READ IF YOU SOON PLAN ON USING dutasteride FOR THE FIRST TIME

we need to perform some tests. I think the simplest way to rule out if any generics are bs, we should do some blood testing pre and maybe one month post start of dutasteride...one person for each generic (dutas, duprost, dutagen). I already have been taking dutagen for a couple months, but I plan on getting blood test anyway just to make sure it's working (I'm hoping my serum dht levels are low relative to the norm, as I am taking 1 mg a day plus some topically in my minoxidil)

Obviously this wouldn't measure accurately how much dutasteride is in each cap, but it would giv us a good idea if they are close, way short, or have none in at all (if anyone dht levels are high compared to averages from glaxo's trials on avodart, one could look more closely at the generic...we'd need some more subjects to see if there was a pattern)

Anyone interested?

 

[beaner]

I think most users of the generics made by Cipla and Dr Reddy's are already convinced of the authenticityof the drugs. Both of these companies are well reputed and there is really no question as to the quality of their products. I use finpecia by Cipla and there is no doubt it is real.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Most people are too busy/lazy to bother with blood testing. You're going to have to rely on the accounts of people such as Iamnaked and oni (if you can stop him talking about Dave) to judge the efficacy of generic dutasteride.

Slarti

 

[CCS]

another problem

Even if one "person" does get tested, how do we know he is not an agent of a pharmacy? While an alert to a fake would be more believable, a positive result would still be questionable. I'll get myself tested though. Nice thing about testing for DHT instead of dutasteride is it is probably cheaper.

My indian roommate vouches for the authenticity of Cipla. My question is how do we know the authenticity of cites claiming to sell dutasteride made by Cipla? Should I rule out sites that don't require any prescription at all?

 

[oni]

Sometimes me and Dave wind up Fred the hamster (after hes been out on the piss) by squeezing the contents of a couple of Dutagen pills on the carpet outside his cage. That stuff looks like hamster diarrhoea. :lol:

But Slarti Dave is always talking about you, it's alwats "Slarti this and Slarti that"

 

[arrogantprick]

"My question is how do we know the authenticity of cites claiming to sell dutasteride made by Cipla? Should I rule out sites that don't require any prescription at all?"

I don't know, but is it easy to copy the pill and packaging of a drug companies product? Also, wouldn't a generic manufacturer take action against a website advertising a scam product? The websites are pretty easy to find. The manufacturer would know who the legitimate distributers are.

Maybe the manufacturer itself would be willing to tell you if a certain website is a distributer of theirs via email.

 

[CCS]

check this out

http://www.inhousepharmacy.co.uk/generi ... ation.html

I realize this is NOT authoritative, and that it on a site that sells drugs internationally. But it does give us some specific claims we can verify through other sources, like WHO. Infact, I was on the WHO web page and read stuff they said to CIPLA. CIPLA is legit, no doubt. It is just a question of whether they prosecute sites that use their name. Since they violate US patent law with their generics, and lack a military, I doubt any pharmacies using their name are affraid of CIPLA retaliating. Emailing CIPLA is the only answer. I did once and they did not reply. My email was titled "I need verification of a pharmacy", and I sent it from my university account a month ago.

Anyone else have any ideas? Their web page is http://www.CIPLA.com, I think. Can anyone find their product line on there or get any information on if they distribute capsules or bulk chemicals to the pharmacies?

 

[arrogantprick]

I am going to get a blood test and see if my dht levels are low compared to normal levels. If so, I'll be happy and know that my dutagen pills are doing their job. If not, I will not be happy.

This begs the question: What are normal/high/low serum DHT levels? I can't find any info.

 

[the_swami]

This begs the question: What are normal/high/low serum DHT levels? I can't find any info.

If you get tested the report should have a reference range.

Here is a range from a test I did, I think the units are in pg/ml but it doesn't say.

Dihydrotestoterone (Male)
22-72 (30-39 years)
52-123 (40-49 years)
51-107 (50-59 years)
39-89 (>60 years)

Note: it doesn't specify what the range is for < 30 years old. No idea why...

 

[Old Baldy]

This begs the question: What are normal/high/low serum DHT levels? I can't find any info.

If you get tested the report should have a reference range.

Here is a range from a test I did, I think the units are in pg/ml but it doesn't say.

Dihydrotestoterone (Male)
22-72 (30-39 years)
52-123 (40-49 years)
51-107 (50-59 years)
39-89 (>60 years)

Note: it doesn't specify what the range is for < 30 years old. No idea why...

I've always been confused by the following:

1 - As we age our testosterone levels diminish yet our DHT levels rise.

2 - As we age our DHT levels allegedly rise because enzymes that normally breakdown DHT diminish.

3 - This is probably why we see more balding in aging men.

4 - So, why in the FU** doesn't reducing DHT in older men REDUCE the chance of contracting high-grade prostate cancer? (Does DHT somehow keep pre-cancerous cells from becoming cancerous?)

5 - What enzymes are responsible for breaking down DHT and is there a supplement that could boost those enzymes back to more youthful levels?

6 - I assume the enzymes are aromatases (sp?).

 

[Bryan]

I've always been confused by the following:

1 - As we age our testosterone levels diminish yet our DHT levels rise.

Look at the age ranges again. It shows DHT levels going DOWN after 40-49 years.

4 - So, why in the FU** doesn't reducing DHT in older men REDUCE the chance of contracting high-grade prostate cancer? (Does DHT somehow keep pre-cancerous cells from becoming cancerous?)

I get the impression that depriving prostate cells of androgens forces them to become androgen-independent, which evidently is even more dangerous.

5 - What enzymes are responsible for breaking down DHT and is there a supplement that could boost those enzymes back to more youthful levels?

6 - I assume the enzymes are aromatases (sp?).

DHT isn't aromatizable.

Bryan

 

[Old Baldy]

I've always been confused by the following:

1 - As we age our testosterone levels diminish yet our DHT levels rise.

Look at the age ranges again. It shows DHT levels going DOWN after 40-49 years.

[quote="Old Baldy":57ee5]4 - So, why in the FU** doesn't reducing DHT in older men REDUCE the chance of contracting high-grade prostate cancer? (Does DHT somehow keep pre-cancerous cells from becoming cancerous?)

I get the impression that depriving prostate cells of androgens forces them to become androgen-independent, which evidently is even more dangerous.

5 - What enzymes are responsible for breaking down DHT and is there a supplement that could boost those enzymes back to more youthful levels?

6 - I assume the enzymes are aromatases (sp?).

DHT isn't aromatizable.

Bryan[/quote:57ee5]

FU**!!! Oh well. (Makes sense that DHT isn't aromatizable, otherwise we probably wouldn't be discussing balding cures would we?! DUH!)

I was hoping we could somehow get our DHT levels down to youthful levels without causing problems. You know, get them into the 30-39 or, better yet, the unknown 20-29 range.

I started balding at around 35-40 years old. And it looks like I ain't EVER getting back to my youthful levels. Da**it!

That's just ridiculous how much our DHT levels increase between the ages of 40 and 60 years old. :-x :-x :-x

Bryan: What's the Go* Da** reason for this DHT "spike" between the ages of 40 and 60 years old?

 

[Bryan]

According to that list, it goes DOWN a bit between 40 and 60.

 

[Old Baldy]

Wait a minute Bryan.

I just went back to find the Doctor Proctor post that talked about aging and aromatase. Here it is:

From: Peter H. Proctor - view profile
Date: Mon, Oct 7 2002 12:01 am
Email: pproc...@neosoft.com (Peter H. Proctor)
Groups: alt.baldspot
Not yet ratedRating:
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In article <EjYn9.34705$YK4.2946...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com> "albertwas" <nos...@bellsouth.net> writes:


>From: "albertwas" <nos...@bellsouth.net>
>Subject: Re: Dr P, Others - DHT Increase Mechanism with Age
>Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 11:09:26 -0400
>"Peter H. Proctor" <pproc...@neosoft.com> wrote
>> I once chaired an American Aging Association section where researchers
>> reported a decrease in the eyzymes which break down DHT with with age.
>The
>> presentors suggested this might at least partially account of the
>increased
>> incident of balding with chronological age.
>And what are those enzymes?


Aromatases, if memory serves.

Dr P

Am I interpreting the aromatase part of Doctor Proctor's statement incorrectly?

 

[Bryan]

No, but memory didn't serve Dr. Proctor very well in that instance! :wink:

It's well-known that DHT isn't aromatizable. You can check on body-building sites, if you want further corroboration for that.

Bryan

 

[Old Baldy]

According to that list, it goes DOWN a bit between 40 and 60.

But isn't it higher than it was between 20-40 yrears old?

 

[Old Baldy]

No, but memory didn't serve Dr. Proctor very well in that instance! :wink:

It's well-known that DHT isn't aromatizable. You can check on body-building sites, if you want further corroboration for that.

Bryan

Oh my God!! Dr. P!! :shock: :shock: :shock:

 

[the_swami]

1 - As we age our testosterone levels diminish yet our DHT levels rise.

It's natural for your hormone levels to decline with age, but in the case of DHT my guess is that increased oxidative stress, decreased liver detoxification, and diet (to name a few) probably play big roles.

2 - As we age our DHT levels allegedly rise because enzymes that normally breakdown DHT diminish.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no enzyme that breaks down DHT but rather it is "sulfated" via liver phase 2 detoxification. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, please.

5 - What enzymes are responsible for breaking down DHT and is there a supplement that could boost those enzymes back to more youthful levels?

Already mentioned the enzyme issue. As far as upregulating phase 2 detoxification, there are numerous helpful supplements. Since DHT is a hormone, I'm going to assume it is non-polar and hence get's removed via bile. n-acetyle-cysteine, selenium, and perhaps bile acids (can be found as Ox Bile on sites like vitaminshoppe.com) could help. Here are some links that may help:

http://www.life-enthusiast.com/index.ph ... Q2=Bennett

http://www.liverdoctor.com/03_detoxpathways.asp

 

[Bryan]

But isn't it higher than it was between 20-40 yrears old?

Looks like it reaches a peak at a certain age, then slowly declines (at least according to those posted numbers).

BTW, that's rather similar to what I found a few years ago when I was arguing with someone on alt.baldspot over what exactly happens to DHT levels as we age. I did a lot of searching on PubMed, but couldn't get any really clear, definitive answer to whether it INCREASES or DECREASES with age.

No, but memory didn't serve Dr. Proctor very well in that instance! :wink:

It's well-known that DHT isn't aromatizable. You can check on body-building sites, if you want further corroboration for that.

Bryan

Oh my God!! Dr. P!! :shock: :shock: :shock:

Hey, everybody makes mistakes sometimes, even Dr. P! :wink: In fact, that's not the FIRST time he's made a little boo-boo.

Bryan

 

[Old Baldy]

Thanks for the info. Bryan and Swami!

Bryan: Dr. P DOES NOT make mistakes. Well, maybe one. :lol: