Topical flutamide: "local" or "systemic&quot

Bryan

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The graph below is from "Local and Systemic Reduction by Topical Finasteride or Flutamide of Hamster Flank Organ Size and Enzyme Activity", Chen et al, J Invest Dermatol 105:678-682, 1995.

It shows the clear danger of systemic absorption when using flutamide topically. Even though the three different doses (30 mcg, 100 mcg, and 300 mcg) were applied to the right side of the hamsters only, the left side sebaceous glands were affected to virtually the same degree, indicating that the drug was working by a systemic route. I've been saying this for a long time, but I figured a picture is worth a thousand words! :)

Also, note that the same thing is pretty much true for topical finasteride, too.

http://img479.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... de8la7.jpg

Bryan
 

pratc

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So, please, are you implying that this is bad because an unknown quntity is entering the system and could give side effects or good because the topical is actually being absorbed?

Thanks.
 

Bryan

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I'm implying that it works ONLY by the systemic route.
 

CCS

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he is saying that if you put it on your head, every organ in your body will get the same effect that your head gets, because it does not work where it is applied, but instead is absorbed through the skin, gets converted in the body into another chemical that does work, is sent everywhere through the blood, and then goes back to the scalp and helps your hair there, while affecting your muscles and everything else in your body that uses testosterone.
 

pratc

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Wont the amount entering, and the speed of entry into the system depend on what agent was used with the finasteride? Do we know what was used in this experiment, for example an alcohol (?)
 

Bryan

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The drugs were delivered in a 50/50 ethanol/propylene glycol topical vehicle.

Bryan
 

CCS

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I think the right vehicle can definitely make finasteride have a local effect. But do you want to be the guiny pig when we can't do studies very well?
 

pratc

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So, unfortunately the finasteride is getting into the system via a topical route. Has it ever been studied to compare the amount entering topically this way and if taken orally. Obviously it will depend how much is applied orally or topically, but a comparison could be made with the same quantity.

If much of the topical method is absorbed into the system do we know if ANY was retained in the follicle area to act usefully in a 'topical way'?

I think it may be interesting to see the results with finasteride used with a liposome vehicle, as is it correct to think that liposomes release topicals in a controlled and useful way, or has this already been done?

If only topical could be sorted out - it would be so much safer.
 

Old Baldy

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Prat: I'm not sure getting finasteride./dutasteride. into the bloodstream is such a bad thing anymore. In fact it may be a good thing? Please read a summary of a current study posted by Plat:


Proscar Exonerated as Trigger for High-Grade Prostate Cancer

By Judith Groch, Senior Writer, MedPage Today
Reviewed by Zalman S. Agus, MD; Emeritus Professor at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine.
August 16, 2006


MedPage Today Action Points


Inform concerned patients taking Proscar for benign prostatic hyperplasia that the small but significant risk of high-grade tumors associated with its use was probably not caused by the drug, but rather by improved detection, according to this analysis.

Additional Prostate Cancer Coverage
Review
SAN ANTONIO, Aug. 16 -- Proscar (finasteride), the 5α-reductaste inhibitor, increased the sensitivity of PSA testing for both overall and high-grade prostate cancer, according to an analysis of a large trial, and did not perpetrate any aggressive malignancies.


This analysis was spurred by results of the seven-year Prostate Cancer Prevention Trial (PCPT) in which men in the Proscar arm had a 24.8% reduced risk of prostate cancer compared with placebo patients. However, they also had a small but statistically significant increase of malignancies with high Gleason scores.


But because of the increased sensitivity of PSA testing with the use of Proscar, the increase in aggressive tumors could only have been expected, wrote Ian Thompson, M.D., of the University of Texas here, and colleagues, in the Aug. 16 issue of the Journal of the National Cancer Institute.


The fact that the increased hazard ratio for detecting high-grade tumors appeared early and did not increase with time was inconsistent with the theory that Proscar induced high-grade disease, they concluded.


The increase in high-grade tumors (Gleason 7-10) in Proscar patients (37%) versus placebo control (22.2%) dampened interest in using Proscar to prevent prostate cancer, wrote Dr. Thompson, and colleagues. Proscar is FDA-approved to ease symptoms of benign prostatic hyperplasia.


The trial was closed a year earlier than planned because the primary objective -- reduction in prostate cancer risk -- had been achieved. To clarify the role of Proscar, the researchers studied men in the placebo and Proscar groups of the PCPT who had had a prostate biopsy with concurrent PSA testing during the study.


In their analysis, prostate cancer was detected in 1,111 of 5,112 men (22%) in the placebo group, the researchers reported. Gleason tumor grade was available for 1,100 of the placebo men, of whom 240 had grade 7 or higher and 55 had grade 8 or higher.


Of 4,579 men taking Proscar, 695 had prostate cancer (15%). Gleason grade was available for 686 men, of whom 264 had grade 7 or higher, and 81 had grade 8 or higher.


The receiver operating characteristic curve (AUC) of PSA for all outcomes was greater for the Proscar group than for the placebo group, the researchers reported. The AUC of PSA, a measure of diagnostic accuracy, is a biomarker that has widespread use in the U.S. and is better at detecting higher-grade prostate cancer than lower-grade cancer, the researchers said.


For detecting prostate cancer versus no cancer, the AUCs were 0.757 and 0.681, respectively (P<0.001); for detecting Gleason grade ≥ 7 versus ≤ 6 or no cancer, the AUCs were 0.838 and 0.781, respectively (P=0.003); and for detecting Gleason grade ≥ 8 versus ≤ 7 or no cancer, the AUCs were 0.886 and 0.824, respectively (P=0.071), the researchers reported.


The sensitivity of PSA was higher for men taking Proscar than for those given a placebo at all PSA cutoffs matched by specificity, the researchers reported. Thus, they said, PSA's significantly better sensitivity and better AUC for detecting prostate cancer among the Proscar patients would be expected to contribute to greater detection of all grades of prostate cancer.


Moreover, he added, the difference in the absolute numbers of high-grade tumors found in for-cause biopsies (i.e. those done for an elevated PSA or a digital rectal exam) was not seen in the end-of-study (not-for-cause) biopsies.


Among the advantages of Proscar, the researchers wrote, is that the drug led to significant improvements in the AUC of PSA for prostate cancer detection, an accomplishment that is otherwise difficult to attain. In fact, they wrote, this effect of Proscar on the sensitivity of PSA may have been at least in part responsible for the increased detection of high-grade disease in the PCPT.


The study had several potential limitations, the researchers wrote. The conclusions may not apply to other populations, as the men in the study were generally healthy, predominantly white, with a median age of 72 at the outset.


In addition, not all men who were advised to have a biopsy did so, whereas more men in the placebo arm accepted the recommendation. Nevertheless, the researchers said, the high rate of end-of-study biopsies regardless of PSA and rectal exam results were equal in both arms, suggesting that none of these factors biased the results.


The central finding of this analysis, namely that Proscar increased the sensitivity of PSA testing for both overall and high-grade cancer, had three major implications, the researchers wrote. First, the increased risk of high-grade disease in the PCPT was due, at least in part to improved detection, rather than the induction of high-grade disease. Second, Proscar may improve the performance of PSA screening in the general population.


And finally, Dr. Thompson said, because PSA testing was better in the Proscar group, the 24.8% decrease in the seven-year prevalence of prostate cancer reported in the PCPT is likely to be an underestimate of the actual reduction in prostate cancer risk with Proscar.
 

Bryan

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pratc said:
So, unfortunately the finasteride is getting into the system via a topical route. Has it ever been studied to compare the amount entering topically this way and if taken orally. Obviously it will depend how much is applied orally or topically, but a comparison could be made with the same quantity.

That's a very interesting question! :) I don't recall ever seeing a study in which hamsters were given oral finasteride, and the effect on their sebaceous glands measured in a similar way as the one I posted above. However, I haven't really ever looked for such studies. There may be some like that out there.

pratc said:
If much of the topical method is absorbed into the system do we know if ANY was retained in the follicle area to act usefully in a 'topical way'?

Well, here I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean the hair follicle specifically, as opposed to the sebaceous gland? We can plainly see that the sebaceous glands were equally affected on both sides...

pratc said:
I think it may be interesting to see the results with finasteride used with a liposome vehicle, as is it correct to think that liposomes release topicals in a controlled and useful way, or has this already been done?

Dunno. That would indeed be interesting.

Bryan
 

pratc

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Thank you all for the replies.

Bryan, I'm on a steep learning curve and looking back, what I think I was trying to ask was:

Do you think that anything useful was done by the finasteride. in a topical way rather than by it entering the system?

I now think it is impossible to say what contribution, if any, was due to topical behavior (?)
 

Friendofyou

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isn't it the case, that only 14% of the flumatide enters the blood? and if you take for example 1,33% and 1 ml, it would be 1,9 mg...

that's not so much, if you compare the use of orally flutamide from 250-750 mg / day, in which cases side effects occur

btw. IF you compare the study to men, you would have to use 70mg and more mg, and who is doing that?
 

CCS

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14% was recovered in urine. Only 50% was recovered off the scalp. That leaves 36% unaccounted for. It probably is bonded to androgen receptors somewhere, or in the fat or some other place. Had they left it on longer, more would have gone in.
 

Dave001

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Re: Topical flutamide: "local" or "systemic&

Bryan said:
The graph below is from "Local and Systemic Reduction by Topical Finasteride or Flutamide of Hamster Flank Organ Size and Enzyme Activity", Chen et al, J Invest Dermatol 105:678-682, 1995.

It shows the clear danger of systemic absorption when using flutamide topically. Even though the three different doses (30 mcg, 100 mcg, and 300 mcg) were applied to the right side of the hamsters only, the left side sebaceous glands were affected to virtually the same degree, indicating that the drug was working by a systemic route. I've been saying this for a long time, but I figured a picture is worth a thousand words! :)

Also, note that the same thing is pretty much true for topical finasteride, too.

http://img479.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... de8la7.jpg

I have amassed a wealth of information concerning this issue, if it is a topic you wish to revive.

There are big problems with using hamsters and rats as a model. Absorption through teh skin is much easier and faster than in humans, which is especially pertinent to finasteride because of its very shallow dose-response curve. Even spironolactone has shown systemic-only effects in these animal models in some studies, as you know.

Far from the whole picture (solubility factors being of great importance), but still an important factor that one cannot overlook is finasteride's mol. weight of 372.544 g/mol:

http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary ... ?cid=57363
(also note computed XLogP)

This is close to 100 g/mol greater than that of flutamide and testosterone, as a comparison.

Flutamide:
http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary ... i?cid=3397

Testosterone:
http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary ... i?cid=6013

BTW, did you get/read the Mazzarella study of topical finasteride in humans that I sent you? It leaves much to be desired, but is the largest topical finasteride study conducted in humans that we have. The study was single-blind with an overall positive outcome.

The critical part is establishing an upper bound of percutaneous absorption in man from a given concentration in a given vehicle. This can be done reasonably by analyzing absorption data from similar compounds in different vehicles. I also have some results for finasteride in human skin, ex vivo.

According to Merck, the threshold dose above which circulating DHT is significantly reduced is 5 µg.
 
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