what to do if sides from finasteride/dutasteride

CCS

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Since I put this in the general section and should have put it in the experimental secion, I'm going to add a disclaimer: The pieces of this method were tested and found to work, but the whole mixture was not, and this was not tested by FDA. I came up with this, so take it with a grain of salt, but I read a lot about each part and how it works.

A 25-50-25 water-ethanol-pg 0.025% finasteride solution works as well as the internal in a small trial. The following is a 0.083% finasteride solution in a superior vehicle (DMSO takes it deep, octyl salicylate increase penetration 10x in studies). A 1% spironolactone cream inhibited facial hair well in a human study. This 2% liquid is probably better than most creams and goes on clear and easy with a dropper. The other active ingredients grow hair as good as minoxidil by actually interfering with the balding process. The finasteride dose your body will get is the equivallent of 0.2mg/day, but much stronger on the hair, and most of the finasteride hitting the blood stream will be bonded to a 5ar2 already.

Buy 190 proof everclear. Buy DMSO and octyl salicylate (I'll post the cheapest place shortly). Buy 1 gallon of propylene glycol for $30 free shipping at http://www.chemistrystore.com. Get 16 oz of borageseed oil here:
http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/oils/herbal.php
Buy spironolactone 3x100x25mg for $30 free shipping at http://www.inhousepharmacy.com and get some fincar too while you are there.
Buying a mortar and pestel will make life a lot easier.

Grind up 48 spironolactone pills wiith 10 fincar pills. Add 60mL of everclear, preferably mix them in a bottle so you can shake it up. Give it at least 5 minutes to fully dissolve the active ingredients, then let the filler settle. Carefully pour or pipet off the liquid into 2 60 mL bottles, leaving the powder behind. To each bottle, add 30mL of propylene glycol, 5mL of octyl salicylate, 2 mL of DMSO, 3mL of borageseed oil (prevents PG irritation and is anti-infammatory to fight baldness) and 18 mL of water. The oleic acid at http://www.chemistrystore.com is nice too, but too big. Add 2 drops 7 drops of white vinegar to the solution to bring the pH down to 4.5 to stablize the spironolactone. I could be wrong about the 7 drops, but that should be close. Add 5 120mg capsules of grapeseed extract, 120mg.

Now you have two 60mL 0.05% finasteride, 2% spironolactone, 1% grapeseed extract solutions. Use 2mL twice a day, or use more to completely get your future male pattern baldness area. If you can get a little apply poly to dissolve in there that is even better.

Costs:

liquids: less than $1 per month total
extracts: less than $1 per month, total
fincar: $10 per month
spironolactone $5.

Total $17 per month. for 2mL twice a day.

buy pine oil $5 for 4oz, and add 1-2 mL to the mix. It has 10-20% of a compound that can beta sis, which can turn testosterone in your scalp into estrogen, I think. I think the octyl salicylate will drag any steroid into the pores at 10x, making this spironolactone very strong. It also is a sun screen. The DMSO is used in most skin care products. The ethanol and water will make this lite and faster drying.
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RU is probably stronger than propecia. It works by blocking the androgen receptor to give almost castration effects where applied. But it is expensive. If you use 3mL of 3% once a day, you will need 2.7 grams a month. So 10g which is $300 would last you only 4 months. You have to mix it up yourself. And shipping is $90 per shipment.

Eating borage seed oil, fish oil, and grapeseed extract and green tea with soy and apple poly and curcumin could help your hair a lot, and actually slow the balding process. It would be easy since they are internals. But I don't think they are strong enough by themself.

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Anyone who wants to recommend good sites to get this stuff please post.

Also I hope micheal berry or docj077 will check what I said about the beta sis.
 

CCS

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there is a possibility that if you use dutasteride instead of finasteride, the dutasteride will bind with all the 5ar1 in the sebum gland and not enough will be left for the follicle's 5ar2. Also, since I'm taking dutas now, the finasteride might not do much for me. I'm thinking about use 4 dutas in mine in place of the finasteride, and getting the 3x100x100mg spironolactone next time since it is 80% the price. I'll add just a very small amount of grapeseed extract and apple poly, and have both of these in a separate mixture with a little boswillia powder. I'm diluting my minoxidil to 2.5% and adding 2g of borage seed oil to it and a small amount of GSE. Three solutions total. I plan on applying them 4 and 2 hours before a shower so I can get them out afterwards. I think I'll use tricomin every other day after a shower when my AC spray and folligen run out.
 

CCS

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the rubbing alcohol is probably OK, but it is more toxic than ethanol. I prefer to pay extra for the healthiest stuff. At a $1 a month, I'm not complaining.

As for the sides issue, I explained that above. You get a much lower dose than you do orally, so the side effect probability is lower. It is in higher concentration in the scalp, bonds to 5ar2, takes it out, and goes to the rest of the body diluted and some of it bonded already. So less likely to give side effects. The fact is many guys who had intolerable side effects cut their dose in half and the effects went down. So cutting it down further should help more. The 0.083% gives about the amount 1/4 propecia orally would give to the body, and you can go to 1/3 that much if need be, and still get a lot of power in the scalp. There is still systemic DHT, but the spironolactone should help.
 

bubka

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i understand your theory or reasoning, but there is no research or clinical evidence that this would reduce sides, and
It is in higher concentration in the scalp, bonds to 5ar2, takes it out, and goes to the rest of the body diluted and some of it bonded already.
not to mention that this is at all an effective treatment to boot...
 

CCS

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I know I should post links, but someone else posted a pubmed study where the 25-50-25 water, ethanol, propylene glycol topical with I think 0.025% finasteride regrew hair in 6 months in a sample size of like 30 or so. In another study, octyl salicylate increased finasteride pentration by 10x in an alcoholl water vehicle. So no large studies have been done, and also not on this specific combo. I'll dig through micheal berry's posts and try to find the studies. I think old baldy posted the octyl salicylate study.
As for topical spironolactone, there was a human study of about 20 women with facial hair and a 1% spironolactone cream dramatically reduced hair size and count. That is on bryan's web site. This would be easy to make, and is cheap. I'm not saying guys should stop oral finasteride and take this instead. But if they can't take finasteride and are on revivogen and other stuff, they should add this.
 

mrfuture

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Man, you are going to get somebody killed soon if you do not stop writing this stuff. I appreciate your good intentions, but you are risking big time by preaching your theories. Soon somebody will get confused and mix up things in the wrong way and create some serious damage to their heatlh....

Just my two cents.....

Future
 

LookingGood!

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bubka said:
i understand your theory or reasoning, but there is no research or clinical evidence that this would reduce sides, and
It is in higher concentration in the scalp, bonds to 5ar2, takes it out, and goes to the rest of the body diluted and some of it bonded already.
not to mention that this is at all an effective treatment to boot...



Agreed! dO YOU THINK HE will ever get that?
 

LookingGood!

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mrfuture said:
Man, you are going to get somebody killed soon if you do not stop writing this stuff. I appreciate your good intentions, but you are risking big time by preaching your theories. Soon somebody will get confused and mix up things in the wrong way and create some serious damage to their heatlh....

Just my two cents.....

Future


He's a mad scientist. The Gilbert chemistry set guy~
 

CCS

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I just thought about this some more. Dutasteride comes in a very small dose (0.5mg) but is poweful because of its long half life and buil up. Even 1mg of dutasteride inhibits more DHT after a single dose than 5mg of proscar. I just wonder if topical dutasteride, even at its higher amount per scalp volume, would be as strong as dutasteride at steady state. The topical gets rinsed away and so does not build up. Anyway, I'm just thinking the finasteride and spironolactone are definitely good, but I'm not sure if the topical dutasteride would be that much help to men already on oral dutasteride.

yeah, I got to crank out some homework now. But i just wanted to say if you are taking dutasteride each day, topical finasteride probably won't help you. better spend the money on spironolactone instead. and while a temporarily higher local concentration of dutasteride from topical dutasteride can give a good punch, it does not build up a steady state level. So it probably is not stronger than topical finasteride. If you are taking internal dutasteride, I don't think the topical dutasteride will do any better than adding it to your internal. Maybe you will get the same results with less systemic testosteron build up.
 

bubka

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no offense man, but this is all insane... we know the finasteride degrades when exposed to air and especially water and even moisture... so what will happen when combined with "48 spironolactone pill" and Everclear, which is 5% water... and then the other ingredients and who knows what happens when they interact...

i mean jesus man, you could make somebody lose their skin and hair or something even worse... not that i think anyone is actually going to do any of this, but still
 
G

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Perhaps take 1.0 mg or 1.5 mg of dutasteride orally instead of 0.5 mg if you want stronger 5alpha r inhibition? Word?
 

Bertie

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I have embraced the mad chemist inside of me and formulated this concoction. Mostly, anyway -- I left out the grape seed because I am going to apply it to body hair for a few months before trying it on the scalp (the same way Mr. Barry does in his experiments), and so I wanted to stick to those ingredients -- finasteride, spironolactone, and borage oil -- that should have the opposite effect on body hair as scalp hair. That is, if this solution works, it ought to suppress the body hair to which I will apply it.

I did, however, have one issue in the formulation -- the spironolactone tablets that I obtained were orange, and when dissolved in alcohol the resulting solution was quite orange, no matter how long I left it to settle, and it is still pretty orange in its water-alcohol-PPG-DMSO-octyl salicylate-vinegar final form. I do not know whether this is normal for spironolactone topicals or not; at any rate, cosmetic acceptability might be an issue should I actually end up applying any of this to scalp hair. (The orangeness prevented me from checking the pH, as well -- I do have a liquid/dropper type pH test kit, but since the liquid being tested is colored the results would probably be screwy).
 

CCS

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My tablets are orange too, but for some reason my solution is not a strong orange. It just has a little orange too it.


The finasteride won't inhibit body hair. Neither does oral finasteride. But the spironolactone should.



As for some of the other posters: I'm not telling people who've never been on finasteride to use this instead of trying finasteride. I'm telling people who've been on finasteride a while and can't handle even reduced doses to try this, since there was a study in which a 25% water, 50% ethanol, 25% propylene glycol solution, with a very small amount of finasteride, regrew hair in the majority of users. Since octyl salicylate increases finasteride absorption 10X in another study, I think it would be for the spironolactone and the finasteride. Oleic acid and DMSO help the octyl salicylate dissolve.

I'm sure the finasteride will degrade over time, so people might want to make weekly batches. I think my spironolactone at pH 4.3 in the fridge will be fine.
 

Cassin

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The more I see this guy post the lest I think he has a clue on anything he says.......

CCS....any threads you make for now on need to go to Experimental Treatments.
 

CCS

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like I said in the beginning of the thread, I realized after I made this thread that it should go in the experimental section, but someone replied to it before I could delete and paste it there.
 

Cassin

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collegechemistrystudent said:
like I said in the beginning of the thread, I realized after I made this thread that it should go in the experimental section, but someone replied to it before I could delete and paste it there.

It doesn't matter. If you make a topic, it goes here. You make too many posts like this and I don't have time to follow them all.

If you want to argue it further send me a pm and please do not discuss it here.
 

bubka

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JayMan said:
Perhaps take 1.0 mg or 1.5 mg of dutasteride orally instead of 0.5 mg if you want stronger 5alpha r inhibition? Word?
i think on the phase 2 study 2.5mg of dutasteride showed the best results... which differs from finasteride as 1mg was just as good as 5mg
 
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Yes it does

I used to have more hair on my butt and now, i dont. Its deifinelty finasteride that has reduced it.

J

collegechemistrystudent said:
The finasteride won't inhibit body hair. Neither does oral finasteride. But the spironolactone should.
quote]
 
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