Why To Not Apply Pge1 (or minoxidil) And Pge2 At The Same Time?

[DavidsDome]

Hi all

Can somebody explain why we shouldn't apply PGE1 and PGE2 at the same time?
I understand that PGE1 is anti-inflammatory and that PGE2 is inflammatory.
So they are in that way opposites.
But does that then, per definition, mean that we cannot apply them together?
They both have benefits to our hair.
I have also read that they are antagonists of each other.
But so far I didn't come across a real explanation of what exactly happens when applying them together.
Is it that they bind to the same receptors and in that way block each others working?
In short, what actually happens when applying them together?
Thank you for clarifying!

 

[DavidsDome]

Prostaglandin (PG) E1 or E2 added at 2-1,000 ng/ml to quiescent cultures of Swiss 3T3 cells synergistically enhanced the rate of initiation of DNA replication stimulated by PGF2 alpha alone or with insulin. Neither PGD2 nor PGF1 alpha had any effect with PGF2 alpha. An increase in the rate of entry into S phase also occurred when PGE1 or PGE2 was added 8 or 15 hr after addition of PGF2 alpha. However, adding PGE1 and PGE2 together with PGF2 alpha did not further enhance the synergistic effect observed with PGE1 or PGE2 separately. The synergistic effect was also observed in stimulation of 2-deoxyglucose uptake but not in early changes of intracellular levels of cAMP. These results may be relevant in understanding the control of fibroblastic proliferation in wound healing and may provide an alternative mechanism for oncogenic transformation.

https://works.bepress.com/marit-nilsen-hamilton/2/

In this study, PGE1 and PGE2 have been applied together.
Although the subject of investigation is not hair loss.
I'm just not sure how we need to read this.
When they applied PGE1 and PGE2 together, there was no further enhanced synergistic effect than when applied separately, in the specific thing they studies here, being Swiss 3T3 cells.
But does it show that applying PGE1 and PGE2 together is possible?
This thing basically confuses me even more

 

[Sanchez1234]

@HairCook @IdealForehead maybe the brainiacs can help answer your question.

 

[IdealForehead]

@HairCook @IdealForehead maybe the brainiacs can help answer your question.

I don't know. I'm not too interested I'm pge1/pge2 pathways due to the problems described here:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...ol-will-make-your-face-look-like-sh*t.109593/

It's because of those problems ive never experimented directly with either PGE and I've cut minoxidil out. It's also why I'm experimenting with ER-beta predominant estrogens, as I am seeking alternative pathways to growth stimulation.

 

[DavidsDome]

Thanks @IdealForehead for taking the time to check this out.
I had read that thread some time ago.
I understand why you are ruling out the PGE1 and PGE2 thing...

 

[DavidsDome]

Some info on stability of PGE2 in ethanol solutions:

In absolute ethanol, PGE2 loses about 10% potency in about 24 to 36 months at 4 °C (1 to 10 mg/ml). At lower concentrations solutions are less stable.

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/conten...igma/Product_Information_Sheet/1/p0409pis.pdf

 

[DavidsDome]

Stable for at least 2 years after receipt when stored at -20°C. Avoid basic solutions (pH > 7.4), since Prostaglandin E2 will degrade to PGA and PGB. We do not recommend storing aqueous solutions for more than one day.
http://www.enzolifesciences.com/BML-PG007/prostaglandin-e2/

So what is ethanols pH?
Everything organic has a pH and you could probably argue that inorganic compounds have a pH depending on the definition of an acid (bronsted lowry, lewis etc..)
If Wikipedia is correct in stating that the pKa is 15.9 than that value is related to pH by the negative logarithm of pKa.
So.... pH = (-log)pKa---------- if you use the inverse log function on your calculator which is 10^x power times the pKa 15.9 you should derive a number around 7.9 which represents the pH. So Ethanol is slightly basic which is consistent with the idea that that OH (hydroxide ion) the characteristic feature of alcohols is present in solution.
http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=3808.0

So it seems it would be better to make fresh batches or weekly batches of PGE2 solutions in ethanol.

 

[Georgie]

I’ve spoken about this. You won’t take them together because one cancels the other out. You don’t put pge2 in ethanol because it degrades rapidly. New batches in water daily.

 

[DavidsDome]

From what I read above, it seems better to dissolve it in ethanol and put in the fridge than putting it in water.
Loosing a potency of 10% in 2 years time in ethanol seems more than fine. (although we do use lower concentrations but still)

Do you have any idea to why PGE1 and PGE2 cancel each other out?
What is actually happening?
It seems that Swiss once said it happens.
But I cant find an explanation to why this is and what actually happens...

 

[DavidsDome]

Although the biologic activities of corresponding members of the monoenoic (PGE1) and dienoic (PGE2) prostaglandins are in many ways qualitatively similar, in other respects, they differ markedly. For example, PGE1 inhibits aggregation of human platelets in vitro whereas PGE2 does not influence this activity [28]. Also, PGE1 is more effective than PGE2 in increasing concentrations of cyclic AMP in human synovial cells in culture, and in suppressing synovial cell proliferation [9]. In addition, PGE1 relaxes and PGE2 contracts guinea pig tracheal muscle. More striking are the antagonistic effects of PGE1 (vasodilation) and PGE2 (vasoconstriction) on bovine coronary and human chorionic plate arteries [29, 30]. In fact, PGE1 prevents PGE2 induced constriction of chorionic plate arteries.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/prostaglandin-e1

maybe this is the explanation?
but that would mean that the effect of PGE1 and PGE2 on the bloodvessels (vasodilation & vasoconstriction) is what makes it work?

 

[Georgie]

Although the biologic activities of corresponding members of the monoenoic (PGE1) and dienoic (PGE2) prostaglandins are in many ways qualitatively similar, in other respects, they differ markedly. For example, PGE1 inhibits aggregation of human platelets in vitro whereas PGE2 does not influence this activity [28]. Also, PGE1 is more effective than PGE2 in increasing concentrations of cyclic AMP in human synovial cells in culture, and in suppressing synovial cell proliferation [9]. In addition, PGE1 relaxes and PGE2 contracts guinea pig tracheal muscle. More striking are the antagonistic effects of PGE1 (vasodilation) and PGE2 (vasoconstriction) on bovine coronary and human chorionic plate arteries [29, 30]. In fact, PGE1 prevents PGE2 induced constriction of chorionic plate arteries.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/prostaglandin-e1

maybe this is the explanation?
but that would mean that the effect of PGE1 and PGE2 on the bloodvessels (vasodilation & vasoconstriction) is what makes it work?

Could very well be the answer. I just knkw that taking them together makes them useless.

 

[joni106]

Does this mean that it is not effective to apply castor oil for two hours, wash the hair, and then apply Minoxidil for night?

 

[DavidsDome]

I dont fully understand the whole thing either but...
Might be that you need to leave a bit more hours between both, just to be sure.

 

[Kornel]

Does PGE2 make your hair dependent on it like minoxidil does?

 

[DavidsDome]

I assume you need to apply this daily till the end of days...
PGE2 is lower in balding scalp, so we apply PGE2 to fix the imbalance.
If you experience regrowth from PGE2, then the hairs will most probably shrink again when you take away the PGE2.