Make brotzu's lotion (not yet GB!)
- Thread starter Alphus
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Yes, of course, *if* I'm able to get it fabricated and *if* I need others to join me in order to attain needed economy, I will push for every aspect of the project to be transparent. Those of you who end up involved should speak to me over the phone/facetime, I'd reveal where I end up getting components from and their pricing, as well as the contact info for the pharmacy that compounded it and, of course, tracking numbers for all shipments. Help me out with any information you have on the following 3 tasks:
1) determining the exact components and their relative proportions (DGLA or its precursor? etc)
2) sourcing components cheaply (if pharmacy can't source itself)
3) finding a pharmacy able (sonicator) and willing (European patent but I won't mention that) to mix it (not sure yet if they need the information in the patent in order to fabricate or just the mix of ingredients)
1) determining the exact components and their relative proportions (DGLA or its precursor? etc)
2) sourcing components cheaply (if pharmacy can't source itself)
3) finding a pharmacy able (sonicator) and willing (European patent but I won't mention that) to mix it (not sure yet if they need the information in the patent in order to fabricate or just the mix of ingredients)
Cool Yolo, I'm from a small town outside of Sudbury originally myself. I need to reiterate that, unless I'm going it alone (which I prefer if finacially feasible since I don't want the responsibility/headache), I want everyone else involved to help in any way they can. With the Italian GB, one person handled everything. While having one central person with control over every aspect and all the info about production of the lotion may seem appealing to those of us who are lazy (myself included) and just want to pay and have everything else done for them, it leaves the rest with zero recourse if something (anything) does not go as planned. Don't want that in this case.
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Jeff, you should probably open a new thread to discuss these, so that you don't get buried in all the irrelevant talks. Plus those interested can sign up there.
You might want to look into some of the chemical sources on alibaba. Most of the cheap sources came from China, and AFAIK they usually don't give a sxxt about patent or regulations. But be aware, you could easily get bad batches with poor purity and potentially toxic substances (heavy metal, etc). Kane is located in China, one user got (likely) heavy metal poisoning symptoms from his drug. Pharm grade chemicals are not so easy to produce, that's why some of them are so expensive.
You should probably start contacting some labs for future 3rd party test too. You don't want to be in disadvantage when you start negotiating with chemical sources.
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Nice, I am west and in Alberta. Totally understandable about the responsibility (especially considering the fallout from GB 1+2). If there is anything I can do to help I am in.
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I emailed him asking what the status of the 2nd group buy was. He said he was going to have a new blog post today.
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This forum has some wise users in username1 and mr_robot. I"ll post this in both relevant threads I guess. I spoke to a knowledgeable chemist at a compounding pharmacy here in NY (Haldey Pharma). After mentioning a doctor's prescription would be required, he read through the patent. He first tried to source the components and then looked at the preparation methodology. He said the following:
1) Components
He can get phosphatidylcholine but does not have a *verified* source for DGLA, S-Equol and L-propionylcarnitine (not sure about Stearylamine) and thus cannot fabricate as this is a regulatory constraint. Unsurprisingly, he would *not* recommend I get them from China.
I'm in the second GB and Spato mentioned European suppliers exist but they are very expensive so he had to go outside Europe. He says the lab that's working with him are using their supplier, don't know if they're Chinese. I believe Spato is genuine (though I'm not sure how he'll Fedex everyone this time around without asking for more money, or is Fedex roughly the same cost as what he used for the first GB?). If I receive a bottle from Spato, I can either start to use immediately or try to have it analysed first (which may be prohibitively expensive). Others who claimed to have received it generally did not complain of anything drastic (while one guy apparently sold his bottle bc of side effects he was experiencing, I'm more concerned about lead poisoning and other risks from a shoddy supplier than sides from the active ingredients which we would have gotten from the commercial product as well.) I'd like to know exactly how expensive a reputable European (or any country) supplier would be if they exist. If anyone has any info, please share.
Interestingly, the chemist mentioned that health supplement companies produce some of these chemicals (S Equol, L-propionylcarnitine) but the capsule formulations are not pure. Nonetheless, we could break the capsules and try to formulate lotion from the liquid. Based on what I write below about liposomal delivery, my guess is that wouldn't work well.
2) Preparation
The methodology is vague as one would expect. The parameters of the liposome preparation are not known so it's impossible for any compounding pharmacy in the world to replicate. This has been mentioned by username1 and mr_robot. The patent represents a manufacturing process (not a compound) which requires industrial chemical equipment etc. He also said he believes the components arrive with impurities and that they likely use the sonicator to reclaim the original substances.
Now, Spato did work with a lab (and a sonicator) to produce a lotion. According to this chemist, Spato likely didn't get the liposomes correct, which would affect the effectiveness as the delivery mechanism is suboptimal. Further, mr_robot mentioned getting the preservatives right might be trial and error - however, those who claim to have received it make no mention of stability/preservation issues so can we assume that obstacle has been overcome? I agree with username1 that the effectiveness should only be judged based on the official product. But given that my principle is to continue to attempt to test it (as safely as possible) until Fidia actually releases it, my question is does this suboptimality necessarily mean 100% of the benefit will be lost? Spato's latest post shows a photo with claims of new vellus hairs as he's been using for a few weeks now. What to make of this?
http://rivoluzionecapelli.blogspot.it/
Will try to find labs (in less regulated geographies) that may take this on. Do you guys feel that anageninc could get this done properly? Another poster mentioned one of Kane's users got lead poisoning (or something like that?) which gives me pause. Perhaps anageninc is familiar enough with liposomal delivery into the scalp?
Feedback welcomed and encouraged.
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Just my opinion I dont think you guys should do anymore group buys until at last the people outside o Italy in first GB get their sh*t...
2 group buys and i dont think anyone has received their items yet
Huge debate if this is scam or not or if customs grabbed it
so friendly advice just follow the thread and wait and see if people outside italy receive it.
2 group buys and i dont think anyone has received their items yet
Huge debate if this is scam or not or if customs grabbed it
so friendly advice just follow the thread and wait and see if people outside italy receive it.
for real !! nice!! meaning approximately 3 month of supply.
and do you think for diffuse Androgenetic Alopecia 1 ml will be enough ? i'm planing to shave my head while i get the lotion for the second GB.
i did before shave my head and when i apply minoxidil i make 3 splash and all my TOP scalps was covered with the lotion.
rcom440
Senior Member
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how much people paid him for that?
We each paid 90 Euro, which covered shipping as well. I've been reading the original Italian Brotzu forum (below) and see that the guy heading the Italian GB (Spato aka spatolatorefolle), who first makes his appearance on page 68, was posting frequently and consistently since then, asking questions about the components/preparation/legality etc, updating the forum on his talks with suppliers and labs, and then creating the blog site (below) when there seemed to be enough interest for a group buy. The blog posts seem legitimate as well. Though I had my doubts earlier, those have now been nearly eradicated ("nearly" bc I can't claim to have verified.) This is too much trouble for a small time scam that would only net him a few G's. There is legitimately a language barrier and he has been responding to 200 impatient and inquisitive balding guys for many weeks now, so it's completely understandable that he hasn't answered all of everyone's questions (and it makes total sense that he does not want to jeopardize his relationship with the lab that is doing him a favor by naming them.) The shipping debacle with the first group also seemed likely to occur given that this was run by a single guy as a side project and not a retailer with infrastructure set up for easy international shipments. Not sure how much of it was slow mail or customs issues vs carelessness by the sender but he claims he's going to take care of the the issue with the second GB.
http://www.ieson.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=66178&whichpage=68
http://rivoluzionecapelli.blogspot.it/
I believe he will send the lotion (last blog post mentions the ingredients were received and another guy in the second GB was told it would be shipping in two weeks). However, I'm going to continue gathering info to determine whether this lotion can be made elsewhere (and, if so, will initiate a group buy if I can't bear the cost myself). One dermatology journal that covered Brotzu mentions the exact suppliers Brotzu used for the components and I've found some secondary suppliers in case we can't get the primary source. As long as these suppliers will sell to private citizens (indication is that many will, not sure if shipping/customs would be an issue) the only obstacle then would be finding someone knowledgeable enough to prepare the lotion at home (we may need to provide the sonicator, which is what Spato did with the lab he used) or a lab that is willing to do it given their regulations. New York's top lab will not do it because they don't have a verified source for DGLA and S Equol and would breach regulations if they used any other suppliers not on their list. I believe this means that even Dr. Brotzu's suppliers are not on their trusted list. Brotzu uses Wuhan HengHeDa Pharmacy for the S Equol and the chemist told me reputable US labs would never use any Chinese suppliers. I'd encourage anyone who knows a person/lab that can prepare the lotion competently to post here so we can get this done. The other things to mention is that the NY chemist said there's no way any lab can claim they'll be able to produce the cationic liposomal formulation *exactly* as Brotzu because there is not enough detail in the patent (patents always exclude as much detail as possible.) However, people can produce liposomes at home with a sonicator:
Therefore any decent lab can certainly produce cationic liposomes. So unless someone with expertise tells me that the effectiveness of the lotion REQUIRES that the liposomes are identical to Broztu's and will be completely ineffective otherwise, I'm going to attempt to have it made. If anyone is interested, I'm thinking of getting a small group together (maybe just even one other forum member) to gather information and execute the plan. I'm too busy to do this quickly on my own and I anticipate a lot of false leads etc. The group would communicate by phone which will be much more efficient than doing it via the forum. Let me know.
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