20 y.o diffuse thinning, what else can i do?
- Thread starter Xethmoid
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trolls? okay whatever rocks your boat mate.
inmyhead
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Alpecin study is scam btw. It was sponsored.I also have to tackle male pattern baldness on a daily basis and I think most if not all people who actually have male pattern baldness have to tackle it on a daily basis too, unless they have stabilized really well.
I really agree with trying out different stuff and seeing what works best. There's many people who don't respond to Finasteride and Minoxidil and just give up, but there's many other things out there like Essential Oils and certain shampoo's like Ketoconazole and Caffeine based shampoo's that do work.
Lack of studies done doesn't necessarily mean lack of effectiveness. This is what throws most people off.
That being said, we need to take note of the half-life of the topical treatments we're using. For example, Minoxidil 5% is recommended to be used twice a day for best results. So using certain topicals, especially oils, only once every few days might not work. Hairloss needs to be tackled from as many different angles as possible.
There was a study done that said that a 0.2% caffeine-based topical (Alpecin Liquid) applied every day twice a day (morning and evening) , had the same results as Minoxidil 5% when applied twice a day (Morning and Evening) at the 6 month point. Which is actually really impressive for a natural treatment without the possible side effects of Minoxidil and since Alpecin Liquid is far cheaper than 5% Minoxidil.
An Open-Label Randomized Multicenter Study Assessing the Noninferiority of a Caffeine-Based Topical Liquid 0.2% versus Minoxidil 5% Solution in Male Androgenetic Alopecia - PMC
Androgenetic alopecia is a condition with a high prevalence worldwide and affects both males and females. Currently, only 2 approved treatments exist: finasteride (males only) and minoxidil 2 or 5% solution (males and females). We conducted a ...www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
This brings me to a question regarding the application of topicals. Minoxidil is recommended to be used twice a day, everyday. Does that mean people have to wash their hair twice a day before using Minoxidil? Does it mean you have to use a Shampoo to wash your hair out pre-Minoxidil to get a clear scalp or should you use water? Or are we not supposed to wash hair twice a day, and just washing hair once a day is fine?
The reason I ask this is because from what I know, even just washing hair everyday is bad because it strips hair of its natural oils and makes it dry and thin. So it might make it counterproductive?
So I'd imagine washing hair twice a day, everyday day would possibly be even worse for hair? Or is it fine?
Alpecin Caffeine Shampoo advert which claims it 'helps reduce hair loss' banned - The Sunday Post
THE makers of Alpecin Caffeine Shampoo must no longer advertise that the product can reduce hair loss after a watchdog ruled there was no adequate evidence to support the claim.
www.sundaypost.com
Look mate, I'm not here to disrespect you, I'm not calling you a troll but your comment was troll-ish. Every single person in this thread besides you said the OP's hair looked fine, and some infact said it didn't even look like he had any hair loss.
Your statement was the complete opposite. It's not cool to put fear into young people especially because their emotionally vulnerable and it might make them make rash decisions like Finasteride which has horrible side effects when he might not even need to.
You never know what the other person is going through on the other side of the screen. So just keep that in mind, mate.
Alpecin study is scam btw. It was sponsored.
Alpecin Caffeine Shampoo advert which claims it 'helps reduce hair loss' banned - The Sunday Post
THE makers of Alpecin Caffeine Shampoo must no longer advertise that the product can reduce hair loss after a watchdog ruled there was no adequate evidence to support the claim.
I don't believe Aplecin is a scam and besides, there's been several studies done on caffeine alone to prove its effectiveness against hair loss.
Effect of caffeine and testosterone on the proliferation of human hair follicles in vitro - PubMed
Androgen-dependent growth inhibition of ex vivo hair follicles from patients suffering from Androgenetic Alopecia was present in the human hair organ culture model, a constellation which may serve for future studies to screen new substances against androgen-dependent hair loss. Caffeine was identified as a...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Differential effects of caffeine on hair shaft elongation, matrix and outer root sheath keratinocyte proliferation, and transforming growth factor-β2/insulin-like growth factor-1-mediated regulation of the hair cycle in male and female human hair fol
This study reveals new growth-promoting effects of caffeine on human hair follicles in subjects of both sexes at different levels (molecular, cellular and organ).
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Caffeine and Its Pharmacological Benefits in the Management of Androgenetic Alopecia: A Review
Abstract. Caffeine, particularly after ingestion, is well known to exert various pharmacological effects. A growing body of evidence implicates the ingestion of caffeine with beneficial effects on several diseases. The easy penetration of caffeine across the skin barrier and into human skin...
www.karger.com
This last study was good because it addresses your link regarding caffeines effectiveness. The main problem with caffeine based solutions is that they didn't believe caffeine could have long lasting effects on hair loss, not that it doesn't work.
To which Aplecin came out with a new product to address this called "Aplecin Caffeine Liquid" which is similar to how Minoxidil is meant to be applied twice a day. So you apply it twice a day morning and night and leave it in your scalp the whole day. This fixes the problem of Aplecin not countering Hair Loss Long term.
An Open-Label Randomized Multicenter Study Assessing the Noninferiority of a Caffeine-Based Topical Liquid 0.2% versus Minoxidil 5% Solution in Male Androgenetic Alopecia - PMC
Androgenetic alopecia is a condition with a high prevalence worldwide and affects both males and females. Currently, only 2 approved treatments exist: finasteride (males only) and minoxidil 2 or 5% solution (males and females). We conducted a ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
It's often said how Alpecin is just as good as pharmaceutical drugs, especially as good as Minoxidil 5%. Which is very impressive.
But besides all the studies. I don't believe any of the studies from Finasteride and Minoxidil. Because even though those are FDA approved, they have sooo many more side effects and they don't work on a very large % of people suffering from male pattern baldness. The people that Finasteride does stop hairloss are few, and those that get regrowth are rare.
Finasteride I believe is the biggest scam in the hair loss industry. They claim only 4-6% people that use finasteride get sexual side effects. That is probably the biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard. Atleast 60% of users get sexual side effects and that's being modest. Around 70% - 80% is my guess from what I've seen from hairloss forums, comments sections, voting polls, myriad of websites, literally every single hair loss treatment in the pipeline mentions Finasterides side effects.
If anything, Finasteride outliers (minimum majority) are those that actually don't get side effects and that have their hair loss stabilized.
There's tons of people on every single hair loss forum, hair loss web pages/articles, that claim they've experienced sexual sides and there's even multiple forums specifically created for Finasteride side effects.
So Definitely some major Corruption going on with the false information regarding the "only 4-6% of Finasteride users get sexual side effects" statement.
As for Minoxidil, the results are so minimal, it's considered negligible by most and its side effect profile out weight it's minimal benefits (when there even rarely is regrowth).
That being said, I don't pay much mind to studies but more about people's testimonials. There's a large majority of Finasteride and Minoxidil users that claim the treatment does nothing for them and a big portion of that claim to have gotten side effects or that their hair loss has worsened with Finasteride.
Whereas the testimonials for Caffeine based substances like Alpecin Shampoo and Alpecin Caffeine Liquid have a far higher percentage of happy customers. No one is expecting miracles with Alpecin but as long as it stabilizes and provides thickening, people are happy until a legit cure comes out. But what makes Caffeine based Shampoos even better is that their natural substances, so no side effects, and whereas many people don't respond to Minoxidil or Finasteride, lots of people report improvements with Alpecin.
Lastly, just because Alpecin has far less studies doesn't mean it's any less effective. Remember, natural products don't have the financial backing of Big Pharma to conduct studies, so some studies even for natural substances like Saw Palmetto and Essential Oils like Peppermint Oil, Rosemary Oil, etc doesn't mean they don't work. The media is a crazy place where marketing is real. People will say anything to put other things down and downplay possible solutions just because they can't make money of it.
If Big Pharma had to conduct studies on natural substances, and they prove its effectiveness, they'd lose billions on their pharmaceutical drugs for hair loss. Big pharma with their wealth, resources, marketing and media power will always do what they can to detract people. Money talks. Even famous hair surgeons get commission by promoting their products.
Simply, just because there isn't any studies or enough studies, doesn't mean something isn't effective.
Alpecin is Germany's best selling men's shampoo for a reason.
It's also said that "In Asia, Alpecin is the top selling product to assist in preventing hair loss".
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inmyhead
Senior Member
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I don't believe Aplecin is a scam and besides, there's been several studies done on caffeine alone to prove its effectiveness against hair loss.
Effect of caffeine and testosterone on the proliferation of human hair follicles in vitro - PubMed
Androgen-dependent growth inhibition of ex vivo hair follicles from patients suffering from Androgenetic Alopecia was present in the human hair organ culture model, a constellation which may serve for future studies to screen new substances against androgen-dependent hair loss. Caffeine was identified as a...
Differential effects of caffeine on hair shaft elongation, matrix and outer root sheath keratinocyte proliferation, and transforming growth factor-β2/insulin-like growth factor-1-mediated regulation of the hair cycle in male and female human hair fol
This study reveals new growth-promoting effects of caffeine on human hair follicles in subjects of both sexes at different levels (molecular, cellular and organ).
Caffeine and Its Pharmacological Benefits in the Management of Androgenetic Alopecia: A Review
Abstract. Caffeine, particularly after ingestion, is well known to exert various pharmacological effects. A growing body of evidence implicates the ingestion of caffeine with beneficial effects on several diseases. The easy penetration of caffeine across the skin barrier and into human skin...
This last study was good because it addresses your link regarding caffeines effectiveness. The main problem with caffeine based solutions is that they didn't believe caffeine could have long lasting effects on hair loss, not that it doesn't work.
To which Aplecin came out with a new product to address this called "Aplecin Caffeine Liquid" which is similar to how Minoxidil is meant to be applied twice a day. So you apply it twice a day morning and night and leave it in your scalp the whole day. This fixes the problem of Aplecin not countering Hair Loss Long term.
An Open-Label Randomized Multicenter Study Assessing the Noninferiority of a Caffeine-Based Topical Liquid 0.2% versus Minoxidil 5% Solution in Male Androgenetic Alopecia - PMC
Androgenetic alopecia is a condition with a high prevalence worldwide and affects both males and females. Currently, only 2 approved treatments exist: finasteride (males only) and minoxidil 2 or 5% solution (males and females). We conducted a ...
It's often said how Alpecin is just as good as pharmaceutical drugs, especially as good as Minoxidil 5%. Which is very impressive.
But besides all the studies. I don't believe any of the studies from Finasteride and Minoxidil. Because even though those are FDA approved, they have sooo many more side effects and they don't work on a very large % of people suffering from male pattern baldness. The people that Finasteride does stop hairloss are few, and those that get regrowth are rare.
Finasteride I believe is the biggest scam in the hair loss industry. They claim only 4-6% people that use finasteride get sexual side effects. That is probably the biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard. Atleast 60% of users get sexual side effects and that's being modest. Around 70% - 80% is my guess from what I've seen from hairloss forums, comments sections, voting polls, myriad of websites, literally every single hair loss treatment in the pipeline mentions Finasterides side effects.
If anything, Finasteride outliers (minimum majority) are those that actually don't get side effects and that have their hair loss stabilized.
There's tons of people on every single hair loss forum, hair loss web pages/articles, that claim they've experienced sexual sides and there's even multiple forums specifically created for Finasteride side effects.
So Definitely some major Corruption going on with the false information regarding the "only 4-6% of Finasteride users get sexual side effects" statement.
As for Minoxidil, the results are so minimal, it's considered negligible by most and its side effect profile out weight it's minimal benefits (when there even rarely is regrowth).
That being said, I don't pay much mind to studies but more about people's testimonials. There's a large majority of Finasteride and Minoxidil users that claim the treatment does nothing for them and a big portion of that claim to have gotten side effects or that their hair loss has worsened with Finasteride.
Whereas the testimonials for Caffeine based substances like Alpecin Shampoo and Alpecin Caffeine Liquid have a far higher percentage of happy customers. No one is expecting miracles with Alpecin but as long as it stabilizes and provides thickening, people are happy until a legit cure comes out. But what makes Caffeine based Shampoos even better is that their natural substances, so no side effects, and whereas many people don't respond to Minoxidil or Finasteride, lots of people report improvements with Alpecin.
Lastly, just because Alpecin has far less studies doesn't mean it's any less effective. Remember, natural products don't have the financial backing of Big Pharma to conduct studies, so some studies even for natural substances like Saw Palmetto and Essential Oils like Peppermint Oil, Rosemary Oil, etc doesn't mean they don't work. The media is a crazy place where marketing is real. People will say anything to put other things down and downplay possible solutions just because they can't make money of it.
If Big Pharma had to conduct studies on natural substances, and they prove its effectiveness, they'd lose billions on their pharmaceutical drugs for hair loss. Big pharma with their wealth, resources, marketing and media power will always do what they can to detract people. Money talks. Even famous hair surgeons get commission by promoting their products.
Simply, just because there isn't any studies or enough studies, doesn't mean something isn't effective.
Alpecin is Germany's best selling men's shampoo for a reason.
It's also said that "In Asia, Alpecin is the top selling product to assist in preventing hair loss".
Lol. I haven't seen a single positive alpecin review (well if you don't count paid reviews on amazon). All the studies are done by it's employees or by bribed scientists.
Let's do a quick search for alpecin:
Seems like most people say that they don't know if it works or it's a scam. Why are you defending ti so much?
So far we have:
1. Governments banning alpecin's claims and saying that their studies suck ***.
2. People on various forums saying hat it sucks.
You also claim that finasteride is scam, when we have plenty of people thickening their hair with finasteride. With alpecin we have none (nada, 0).
If you are saying that alpecin might help a little, maybe you are right.
If you say that alpecin can be used for fighting hair loss and finasteride should be ridiculous, you're clearly wrong pal.
As with almost any product on the market, there will always be fake negative reviews most often paid by people to create a false bad image. Competition have done this from eons ago. It's nothing new.
Strange that you couldn't find any positive reviews because I've found lots from various different websites. These are just a few but there's plenty more in the comments section in YouTube videos, etc.
Many people including myself can likewise also say Minoxidil and Finasteride is a scam because it didn't work but made things worse. I am not calling Finasteride or Minoxidil a complete scam but I am saying the results of Finasteride are scammish because they are definitely over inflated to come across highly positive when it's the complete opposite in terms of reviews. There's a lot more people that have negative things to say about Finasteride.
I definitely would not go as far as to say Finasteride doesn't work at all. I'm sure it does work for a small percentage. There's always the outliers.
What I'm mainly saying is that there's a far higher percentage of people both online and even offline that claim Finasteride doesn't doesn't work for them and has too many side effects. It's common knowledge how dangerous Finasteride and Minoxidil can potentially be.
The only reason I'm defending Alpecin is because it has worked for me, and I've seen lots of people including in my personal life that have told me they've seen improvement.
Alpecin never claimed to fight hairloss at the root cause or to be a cure, but it does definitely improve hair. I support it because it's a far cheaper option that has no side effects.
In fact it's well known that attempting to stop hairloss at the root of the problem by blocking DHT can be disastrous, which is what Finasteride does. Alpecin provides a much safer, comfortable solution by not using this approach.
To answer your points:
1) To my knowledge only the UK has banned Alpecin from saying that it stops hairloss, but that's only because they didn't do proper studies. I definitely agree that Alpecin should do more studies but then again, they've already sold their 100 millionth Alpecin unit in 2015, if they were even remotely as bad as what you're claiming, they wouldnt get near that amount. I assume that figure has grown exponentially since then. Plus there's loads of people who claim that Alpecin has improved their hair. They could easily do a study and prove the UK wrong but their making so much money around the Globe, they clearly and unfortunately don't see the need to because people are clearly happy because their still buying and in greater numbers.
Alpecin is already being sold in 40 other countries, not bad for a product which started almost 30 years behind Minoxidil or Finasteride.
Lack of studies, does not mean lack of effectiveness.
2) With the screenshots I've attached which took me under 3 minutes to find, I'd imagine i'd find much more if I had to dig deeper, this makes your second point invalid. So there, plenty of positive reviews.
Remember, every product or app on the market will always have some bad reviews. Even the best of products out there. The internet is full of trolls and fake paid reviews to create false images.
Also I'm sure there loads of paid studies by big pharma and Merck for Finasteride with loads of bribed scientists and people in the FDA.
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If my opinion is unlike most, it would make me a troll? okay lol
I know for a fact that a 20 yo male should not have hair line recession as much as OP does. His front facing shot reveals his weak hair line.
I never intend to put fear into anyone here. I simply stated what I saw. And I see HAIR LOSS. That is fear. Based on my advice, OP can keep this "fear" at bay, most likely.
I wonder what hairlines you expect 20 year olds to have then if OP's hairline looks bad to you. Not everyone is born with low hairlines. And even if there were some slight recession hypothetically, at such an early stage it could simply just be a maturing hairline which many young adults experience at his age.
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His hairline is not bad at all. Its not zayn malik thick but the sides connect to his hairline. Traditional NW2, if that. Of course finasteride would be of benefit, but like everyone else he can make the same decision and hold off until hes a NW2.5 and depressed, lol.
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It is not that bad, but it surely is a bad sign of what to come considering he is still 20. Out of my friends around ages 19-20, only one has a similar hair line to OP and his recession is obvious. He can wait and see what happens, perhaps it stays the same for a long while. But, as @WaccWaccWacc said, it will almost always get worse. I dont think OP wants to worry about bald spots at such an early age. Add to that, finasteride wont kill him. He can always stop it.
Hence why starting finasteride is a decent, almost required, option.
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I think people forget that you can stop finasteride if it doesn’t work for you. At the end of the day its a drug. Do sides exist? Sure. Are you going to have permanent sides from using it for 2 weeks, no. If you say otherwise, you’re troubled.
People recover from years of heroin use. Finasteride is just a starting point in terms of an androgen blocker.
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Exactly. They act as if finasteride will always induce something irreversible and is a rEcKLeSs decision. It is the least "powerful" AA and can easily be stopped and recover from sides. It is always about a loud minority fearmongering.
Here's some real evidence for all those downplaying the negative side effects of Finasteride and calling those who experience sides a "minority" or "small percentage":
If Merck can cover up stuff like this, I'm highly sure they wouldn't hesitate to cover up any other negative results from studies, inflate positive results and thereby downplay the % of users experiencing negative side effects.
www.reuters.com
1100 law suits!!! And this was only from America!! I mean a law suit is a lot of effort, 95% of people who have issues with a drug wouldn't take the effort to resort to going through a whole law suit. Maybe at best a small percentage will maybe post their negative experiences online or on hair loss forums. So imagine how many other people would actually be experiencing side effects from Finasteride.
let people know the truth!!!!!
"More than 1,100 Propecia-related lawsuits filed across the U.S. against Merck were consolidated before Judge Cogan in so-called multidistrict litigation (MDL). Merck agreed to settle most of them last year for $4.3 million, to be divided among the plaintiffs. Prior to the settlement, plaintiffs’ lawyers cited internal company communications to allege that in revisions to the drug’s original label, Merck understated the number of men who experienced sexual symptoms in clinical trials, and how long those symptoms lasted. Merck settled before responding to the allegation in court."
www.reuters.com
So much for all that bullshit about only a" minority" get side effects on Finasteride lol.
If Merck can cover up stuff like this, I'm highly sure they wouldn't hesitate to cover up any other negative results from studies, inflate positive results and thereby downplay the % of users experiencing negative side effects.
U.S. court let Merck hide secrets about popular drug's risks
Lawsuits claim baldness drug Propecia causes sex problems, depression. The judge sealed evidence – viewed by Reuters – suggesting the maker downplayed risks. A widow wants the truth out.
1100 law suits!!! And this was only from America!! I mean a law suit is a lot of effort, 95% of people who have issues with a drug wouldn't take the effort to resort to going through a whole law suit. Maybe at best a small percentage will maybe post their negative experiences online or on hair loss forums. So imagine how many other people would actually be experiencing side effects from Finasteride.
let people know the truth!!!!!
"More than 1,100 Propecia-related lawsuits filed across the U.S. against Merck were consolidated before Judge Cogan in so-called multidistrict litigation (MDL). Merck agreed to settle most of them last year for $4.3 million, to be divided among the plaintiffs. Prior to the settlement, plaintiffs’ lawyers cited internal company communications to allege that in revisions to the drug’s original label, Merck understated the number of men who experienced sexual symptoms in clinical trials, and how long those symptoms lasted. Merck settled before responding to the allegation in court."
Reuters asks judge to release secret Propecia documents
Reuters asked a U.S. judge on Thursday to unseal documents filed in court regarding potential risks associated with Propecia, Merck & Co's popular baldness drug.
www.reuters.com
So much for all that bullshit about only a" minority" get side effects on Finasteride lol.
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1100 lawsuits. How many people take finasteride or have tried it for over a year, in the U.S?
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If only 5million people use finasteride, in thr U.S. then 5% of sides = 250,000 people experiencing sides. If only a fraction (1%) go towards a lawsuit then thats 2500 lawsuits, more than double that have actually occurred.
im not saying merck publishings are legit, Im just saying 1100 lawsuits isnt all that much.
according to wikipedia, 2017 had more than 9million U.S prescriptions
im not saying merck publishings are legit, Im just saying 1100 lawsuits isnt all that much.
according to wikipedia, 2017 had more than 9million U.S prescriptions
According to Wikipedia there's 9 million prescriptions in 2017. Probably even 10 million by now.
According to www.drugs.com, about 10% of Finasteride users get side effects (that's before the law suit was won against Merck for downplaying the amount of Finasteride users who experienced side effects).
But let's just work with 10% for calculation purposes.
10% of 10 million people is 1 MILLION people who have side effects on Finasteride. I actually don't even care whether the people who get side effects on Finasteride are a Majority or Minority.
For ONE MILLION people in the USA alone to get side effects on Finasteride is a damn big number!
I genuinely can't believe you essentially said that ONE THOUSAND ONE HUNDRED *law suits* for only ONE drug is a small amount ?????????!! Remember, even if it is a small % of lawsuits, it doesn't mean it's a small number. 1100 is far too many.
Even 5 law suits for one product or drug is a lot. 10 is something to be concerned about. 100 is something definitely wrong. And 1000 is something undeniably wrong.
And btw, this is only 1100 from America. And I don't know for how many years that number hasn't been updated, it's surely much more than that by now.
*Furthermore, 1100 is not the only number of people who had side effects, it's only the number of people who had the time and the financial and legal means to open a LAW SUIT. The majority of Finasteride users who experience side effects don't have the finances or time to open such lawsuits which are also time consuming. 1100 Law suits are also not the only amount that were filed against Merck, but are the amount that were WON against Merck. There's probably tens of thousands more that have been filed in America alone and many of which have not been dealt with as yet. *.
I mean a law suit is a lot of effort and hassle, I'd say easily more realistically 99.9% of people who have issues with a drug wouldn't take the effort to resort to going through a whole law suit. Maybe at best a small percentage will maybe post their negative experiences online or on hair loss forums. So imagine how many other people would actually be experiencing side effects from Finasteride.
Assuming 99.9% of people don't file law suits and don't have the time and effort to follow through with them.
Then only 0.1% files lawsuits, which sounds more realistic.
If 0.1% = 1100 law suits:
And 0.1% x 1000 = 100% of Finasteride users experiencing side effects.
Then, 1100 x 1000 = 1.1 MILLION Finasteride users (Approximately) in Total in America alone have side effects on Finasteride.
Which is a damn lot of people and this figure more or less matches the figure I mentioned in the beginning of the message (Whereby I said with 10 Million Finasteride prescriptions in USA, and with 10% experiencing side effects = 1 Million Finasteride users experiencing Side Effects)
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Finasteride reduces DHT in the body systemically. Blocking DHT systemically causes loads of problems.
Using Finasteride is like a woman blocking most of her estrogen and increasing test a bit too. Obviously blocking the gender specific sex hormone is going to have some sort of ramifications. To what degree is going to be individual though, and it doesn't even surprise me that some men report suffering genital shrinkage after blocking more than 70% of their DHT for a long time (and also increasing E).
Using Finasteride is like a woman blocking most of her estrogen and increasing test a bit too. Obviously blocking the gender specific sex hormone is going to have some sort of ramifications. To what degree is going to be individual though, and it doesn't even surprise me that some men report suffering genital shrinkage after blocking more than 70% of their DHT for a long time (and also increasing E).
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at the end of the day you can choose not to take finasteride, thats fine. I don’t know what the argument is here but from someone who hasn’t gotten sides, I will continue to use it. Obviously if it is negatively affecting your life, I hope you choose your life wellbeing over your hair follicles.