Are higher does of Minoxidil more effective?

[LookingGood!]

With all of the minoxidil mixtures/ creams and doses out there from Dr Lee's to Dr Lewenbergs to simple Rogaine is there really any data that shows a stronger dosage is capable of growing more hair than a lower dosage? Most of the data out there seems anecdotal at best.

I used minoxidil 2% 2 times a day for a few yrs, then switched to minoxidil 2% with Retin A .025 (tretonin) 3-4 times a day but felt my body "accommodated" to it.
I am now using Dr Lees 15% xandrox at night only. Although it only 2 weeks. Can oversaturation occur?
Please understand, I dont care what peoples preferences are. ie greasy, non greasy etc.

Is a stronger doasage necessary or is it overkill?

I look foward to your comments.

 

[joseph49853]

Good question. I'd be interested in seeing some studies myself. In my opinion, greater concentrations might mean more chance for sides, and less chance for absorption.

For instance, applying minoxidil to a slightly damp head, I definitely found absortion increased. Doing so probably makes a 5% solution 2-3x more potent. But I also found it did very little for hair volume. Perhaps, my hair was a little less ratty. Although, it did allow me to reduce applications from twice to only once daily.

Overall, I think it's up to everyone to weigh the benefits of varying dosages, and the risks.

 

[LookingGood!]

Dr lee says there are no risks. Why would he say thatand put his medical reputation on the line? There has been little known cases of minoxidil sides internally when applied externally. I see your point though. It is thought provoking.

 

[Cassin]

Bryan states that getting more on the scalp may be just as effective as a high concentration solution.

Makes sense to me.

 

[joseph49853]

Dr lee says there are no risks. Why would he say thatand put his medical reputation on the line? There has been little known cases of minoxidil sides internally when applied externally. I see your point though. It is thought provoking.

Sorry, that shouldn't have said "risks," but 'negatives' instead. Or at least, in my mind, there are far less negatives to topical minoxidil, as opposed to an oral DHT blocker.

As far as Dr. Lee, I don't trust him, or his words, nearly as much as others around here.

 

[Bryan]

With all of the minoxidil mixtures/ creams and doses out there from Dr Lee's to Dr Lewenbergs to simple Rogaine is there really any data that shows a stronger dosage is capable of growing more hair than a lower dosage? Most of the data out there seems anecdotal at best.

Is a stronger doasage necessary or is it overkill?

Sure, but you fairly quickly reach a point of diminishing returns. Ordinary 5% Rogaine is already well within that area.

Bryan

 

[LookingGood!]

Dr lee says there are no risks. Why would he say thatand put his medical reputation on the line? There has been little known cases of minoxidil sides internally when applied externally. I see your point though. It is thought provoking.

Sorry, that shouldn't have said "risks," but 'negatives' instead. Or at least, in my mind, there are far less negatives to topical minoxidil, as opposed to an oral DHT blocker.

As far as Dr. Lee, I don't trust him, or his words, nearly as much as others around here.

Why dont you trust him? I dont hear this type of thinking about him at all.

 

[LookingGood!]

With all of the minoxidil mixtures/ creams and doses out there from Dr Lee's to Dr Lewenbergs to simple Rogaine is there really any data that shows a stronger dosage is capable of growing more hair than a lower dosage? Most of the data out there seems anecdotal at best.

Is a stronger doasage necessary or is it overkill?

Sure, but you fairly quickly reach a point of diminishing returns. Ordinary 5% Rogaine is already well within that area.

Bryan

B,

The Doctor who prescribed the 2% with Retin A was Dr Adam Lewenberg. He is a NYC Doctor thats been doing this since 1984 or so. He comes off as a bit of a quack stating we need to apply the formula 4 times a day for maximum absorption. He was criticized b/c his studies were anecdotal recall so to speak and not scientific/peer reviewed. There were flaws in his studies too.

I thought he was telling everyone to apply it 4 times a day b/c it means more $$$ for him. I kept asking him show me the studies and he would never really give me an answer, just tip toe around me.

As for Dr Lee's formula that I am currently using, the 15 % with azelaic acid it's too early to tell if it's effective or not. ONly 3 weeks now. It is freaking greasy but I apply it before I go to bed. So should I get rid of the 15% with azelaic acid? What's you take on azelaic? He showed me studies that it inhibits DHT in the skin.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Bryan]

The Doctor who prescribed the 2% with Retin A was Dr Adam Lewenberg. He is a NYC Doctor thats been doing this since 1984 or so. He comes off as a bit of a quack stating we need to apply the formula 4 times a day for maximum absorption. He was criticized b/c his studies were anecdotal recall so to speak and not scientific/peer reviewed. There were flaws in his studies too.

Oh yeah, I'm quite familiar with Dr. Lewenberg!

Applying 1 mL of a 2% solution four times a day should be fairly similar to using a 5% solution in the standard fashion.

As for Dr Lee's formula that I am currently using, the 15 % with azelaic acid it's too early to tell if it's effective or not. ONly 3 weeks now. It is freaking greasy but I apply it before I go to bed. So should I get rid of the 15% with azelaic acid? What's you take on azelaic? He showed me studies that it inhibits DHT in the skin.

What are your thoughts?

Heh. Long-time posters here know that I'm not a big fan of azelaic acid. There's only one in vitro study showing it to be a 5a-reductase inhibitor, but there's not even one single study showing it to do that in vivo. Not so much as one lousy human study, not even a mouse, rat, or hamster study. I'm skeptical.

Even worse, there's some circumstantial evidence suggesting that topical azelaic acid does NOT reduce DHT: there are at least two or three studies with both humans and animals showing that topical azelaic acid had no effect at all on sebum production. If azelaic acid really did reduce DHT "by up to 98%" like Dr. Lee claims, one would expect sebum production to be sharply reduced. The fact that sebum is unaffected in living animals is a bad sign for azelaic acid.

Bryan

 

[joseph49853]

Bryan hit on one of the main reasons not to trust these doctors selling their own solutions. Some of their words are indeed contrary to the facts. And they are just as much marketers, and self-promoters as they are practioners. I'll always believe they have an agenda that extends well past their patients. And I've seen very little to convince me otherwise.

 

[LookingGood!]

The Doctor who prescribed the 2% with Retin A was Dr Adam Lewenberg. He is a NYC Doctor thats been doing this since 1984 or so. He comes off as a bit of a quack stating we need to apply the formula 4 times a day for maximum absorption. He was criticized b/c his studies were anecdotal recall so to speak and not scientific/peer reviewed. There were flaws in his studies too.

Oh yeah, I'm quite familiar with Dr. Lewenberg!

Applying 1 mL of a 2% solution four times a day should be fairly similar to using a 5% solution in the standard fashion.

[quote="LookingGood!":e08af]As for Dr Lee's formula that I am currently using, the 15 % with azelaic acid it's too early to tell if it's effective or not. ONly 3 weeks now. It is freaking greasy but I apply it before I go to bed. So should I get rid of the 15% with azelaic acid? What's you take on azelaic? He showed me studies that it inhibits DHT in the skin.

What are your thoughts?

Heh. Long-time posters here know that I'm not a big fan of azelaic acid. There's only one in vitro study showing it to be a 5a-reductase inhibitor, but there's not even one single study showing it to do that in vivo. Not so much as one lousy human study, not even a mouse, rat, or hamster study. I'm skeptical.

Even worse, there's some circumstantial evidence suggesting that topical azelaic acid does NOT reduce DHT: there are at least two or three studies with both humans and animals showing that topical azelaic acid had no effect at all on sebum production. If azelaic acid really did reduce DHT "by up to 98%" like Dr. Lee claims, one would expect sebum production to be sharply reduced. The fact that sebum is unaffected in living animals is a bad sign for azelaic acid.

Bryan[/quote:e08af]


So what do you think, switch to minoxidil 5% with retin A no pg 2 times a day
or minoxidil 5% with retin A in the AM and the 15% at night before bed with some spironolactone cream?

or 5% foam 2 times a day?

I just need to go off the 5% Xandox b/c its too oily. :x

 

[Bryan]

Oh, I think you should just use any topical minoxidil which you find cosmetically acceptable, except that I don't think it's a good idea to mix minoxidil and Retin-A together in the same bottle. You want to be able to adjust the dose of Retin-A without simultaneously adjusting the dose of minoxidil, so you'd want to use them separately, if possible.

Bryan

 

[LookingGood!]

Oh, I think you should just use any topical minoxidil which you find cosmetically acceptable, except that I don't think it's a good idea to mix minoxidil and Retin-A together in the same bottle. You want to be able to adjust the dose of Retin-A without simultaneously adjusting the dose of minoxidil, so you'd want to use them separately, if possible.

Bryan

So you are totally against buying these combinations (readily mixed together solutions) like from Drs Lee or Lewenberg. So buying the ortho Mcneil retin a oil then applying the minoxidil. The way the poster Joseph does. Also, that would be greasy right?

Can you objectively (some evidence) explain why mixing them together is not effective as separately.

Thanks
LG

 

[Bryan]

So you are totally against buying these combinations (readily mixed together solutions) like from Drs Lee or Lewenberg. So buying the ortho Mcneil retin a oil then applying the minoxidil. The way the poster Joseph does. Also, that would be greasy right?

I think there's a number of different forms of Retin-A that are available, including creams and gels. I have some tubes of the cream, and it doesn't strike me as being particularly greasy. It seems to absorb and "dry" fairly quickly, as I recall.

Can you objectively (some evidence) explain why mixing them together is not effective as separately.

I didn't say that it wasn't EFFECTIVE, I said that you want to be able to adjust the dose of Retin-A without simultaneously adjusting the dose of minoxidil, so you want to use them separately, if possible.

Having said that, I mentioned somewhere else (I don't remember if it was in this thread, or in a different one) that Price and Shapiro claimed in an article that minoxidil and Retin-A aren't compatible when mixed together in the same solution, but they didn't provide any reference or citation for that claim.

Bryan

 

[Old Baldy]

Thanks for the info. Bryan. Now, this is the way to talk, (i.e., this ENTIRE thread!!!)

I know it must be tough to repeat, repeat, repeat but........ good going!!

 

[LookingGood!]

So you are totally against buying these combinations (readily mixed together solutions) like from Drs Lee or Lewenberg. So buying the ortho Mcneil retin a oil then applying the minoxidil. The way the poster Joseph does. Also, that would be greasy right?

I think there's a number of different forms of Retin-A that are available, including creams and gels. I have some tubes of the cream, and it doesn't strike me as being particularly greasy. It seems to absorb and "dry" fairly quickly, as I recall.

[quote="LookingGood!":5ce29]Can you objectively (some evidence) explain why mixing them together is not effective as separately.

I didn't say that it wasn't EFFECTIVE, I said that you want to be able to adjust the dose of Retin-A without simultaneously adjusting the dose of minoxidil, so you want to use them separately, if possible.

Having said that, I mentioned somewhere else (I don't remember if it was in this thread, or in a different one) that Price and Shapiro claimed in an article that minoxidil and Retin-A aren't compatible when mixed together in the same solution, but they didn't provide any reference or citation for that claim.

Bryan[/quote:5ce29]

tHANKS bRYAN,

As for studies such as Price/shapiro I would nt even consider what they say based on that info. These type of studies are rampant in this industry that's why I am so skeptical of the skeptics! :freaked:
I want to use the combo (Lee's) b/c it's so convenient. I am bummed now. I am not convinced to be honest.

 

[joseph49853]

tHANKS bRYAN,

As for studies such as Price/shapiro I would nt even consider what they say based on that info. These type of studies are rampant in this industry that's why I am so skeptical of the skeptics! :freaked:
I want to use the combo (Lee's) b/c it's so convenient. I am bummed now. I am not convinced to be honest.

I personally wouldn't take a chance, or waste my time, with those solutions. There are lots of things we don't know, including the exact mechanism for growth with minoxidil. Although, we could assume lots of things: about Retin-a's own stability and interaction with minoxidil, its own mechanism for growth, and its use as a vehicle of absorption.

I see so many people having such little success with minoxidil/Retin-a simply because they overapply, or use these combined mixtures. Enough so that Retin-a gets a bad rap. I even see some people applying minxodil well before the actual vehicle of absorption, Retin-a -- for whatever reason.

I'm just looking to maximize my time, and results. And if I can help a few people replicate my results, it will also be well worth my time. Although, I can only speak for my own amazingly great results based on my own Retin-a/minoxidil regimen.

 

[docj077]

tHANKS bRYAN,

As for studies such as Price/shapiro I would nt even consider what they say based on that info. These type of studies are rampant in this industry that's why I am so skeptical of the skeptics! :freaked:
I want to use the combo (Lee's) b/c it's so convenient. I am bummed now. I am not convinced to be honest.

I personally wouldn't take a chance, or waste my time, with those solutions. There are lots of things we don't know, including the exact mechanism for growth with minoxidil. Although, we could assume lots of things: about Retin-a's own stability and interaction with minoxidil, its own mechanism for growth, and its use as a vehicle of absorption.

Minoxidil's mechanism involves TGF-beta inhibition which means that minoxidil prevents growth inhibition, apoptosis, and all downstream fibrotic effects. It also acts a vessel dilator. This has been posted on here many times. It's not a mystery.

Retinoids, like Retin-A, basically remove the keratinized layer of cells from the epithelium of the skin improving absorption of drugs like Minoxidil through the stratified squamous layer. It is possible that Retin-A could penetrate deep enough to cause tissue remodeling, but I don't believe that has been proven.

 

[joseph49853]

Minoxidil's mechanism involves TGF-beta inhibition which means that minoxidil prevents growth inhibition, apoptosis, and all downstream fibrotic effects. It also acts a vessel dilator. This has been posted on here many times. It's not a mystery.

Retinoids, like Retin-A, basically remove the keratinized layer of cells from the epithelium of the skin improving absorption of drugs like Minoxidil through the stratified squamous layer. It is possible that Retin-A could penetrate deep enough to cause tissue remodeling, but I don't believe that has been proven.

I've written many of these things myself. I specifically stated "exact" though. Anything other than exact is unnecessary. Obviously we have an idea on how minoxidil and Retin-a can each grow hair. We know why these things might succeed, but there's less understanding of why they fail. Perhaps if we truly knew, there would finally be a baldness cure for a greater percentage of people.

Obviously deplugging the keratin near/inside the gland is a good thing. Though some people feel it's the bacteria itself, living off of the sebum, in the presence of androgens, which is the very cause of hairloss in itself.

But unless there are more official scientifically based studies on these exact things we're discussing here, then some of this is a supposition or conjecture. And then it just depends on which source you trust. We could even probably split hairs all day, instead of grow them.

But if I've done anything it's share my results, and rekindle the conversation about minoxidil and Retin-a. Not just what was used, but 'exactly' how it was used.

 

[Bryan]

I even see some people applying minxodil well before the actual vehicle of absorption, Retin-a -- for whatever reason.

What do you think is wrong with THAT?

Bryan